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Author Topic: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn  (Read 5161 times)

Mongo

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Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« on: April 27, 2014, 11:35:38 AM »
I'll be honest, this is probably one of the bigger holes in my game.  It's pretty specific situation, but early in tournaments with heavier volumes and iffy surfaces, I get in spots where it's hard for me to tell the difference. 

Case in point, I bowling in a tournament this weekend that was a higher volume/longer pattern (44 ft.) and the ball never seemed to pick up anything.  On the fresh, I started with a Reax (45 x 3 1/4 x 30), and played it pretty straight.  It was on old wood, so I new there had to be some sort of friction, but the ball never slowed down or made any real motion.  I watched the ball's rotation and flare as it went down the lane looking for something.  I saw the flare transition, but there was zero motion.  I was playing dead straight...acutally, I pointing it a hair (laydown 5, looking 8-9, breakpoint 9-10), so I figured there would be some sort of movement.  Nope.  I could get the ball to hit OK, but I was pretty much piping it to the hole.

Later in the set, as a goof, I pulled out a shiny Diva (45 x 4 x 65) played the same line and actually got a wrinkle down lane, not much mind you, but enough to tell me that the Reax was burning up and not skidding 60 feet.  Later on, my inability to identify the surface reaction was really exposed when I saw a couple of guys throwing IQ Tour Pearls and getting a hair of recovery and picking up just a touch of area in a spot where I had to throw it perfect.

That being said, I realized I'm missing something and have been for some time.  I'll be honest that I've been slow to adjust to lane play moving from the front to the back, but it was exploited this weekend.  Now, I can see it better in spots where there is some defined friction and feel pretty confident as they get toasty, but in early/fresh squads, I'm missing something.

So, as I've blabbed on, I guess my question is this.  What ball motion/rotational transition (if it's not moving) should I look for on fresher conditions to detect energy loss? 

Not sure how well worded this is, but I'd like to start up a conversation and will be more that happy to explain what I'm talking about.  If I'm going to try to start really competing, this is a big leak in my game and I'm going to have to figure it out.
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JustRico

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 11:40:01 AM »
I can see your layouts causing issues with them being too strong...too much flare too early causing over flaring which can cause what your seeing as well
The ball may be slowing down ok but too much flare can cause the ball to transition too quickly or flaring out...
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Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 11:49:51 AM »
I can see your layouts causing issues with them being too strong...too much flare too early causing over flaring which can cause what your seeing as well
The ball may be slowing down ok but too much flare can cause the ball to transition too quickly or flaring out...

I get what you're saying, but on a high volume 44 ft. pattern, I figure you need something stronger.

What I'm missing is that I'm looking for some sort motion, but not seeing it.  Even if I am throwing strong, I'm looking for a wrinkle of hook, ball slowing down, ball reaching it's PSA, something. 

I feel like I know what to look for, but in this situation, I get stuck throwing stuff way too strong.

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JustRico

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2014, 11:53:06 AM »
Nope not always...the ball can lose it's rotational integrity so early and quickly you don't realize it
Surface is what slows the ball down, then the core has a chance to effect the reaction but if you combine too much surface and too much flare the lane becomes too long or flares/rolls out
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Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 12:21:52 PM »
Nope not always...the ball can lose it's rotational integrity so early and quickly you don't realize it
Surface is what slows the ball down, then the core has a chance to effect the reaction but if you combine too much surface and too much flare the lane becomes too long or flares/rolls out

So, what you're saying is that if I'm bowling on something slicker and just watch the ball go 60 feet, I can see that as either an absolute flood or the ball burns out at 20 feet.  Correct?

If that's the case, since it's not something you can see, do you go with a weaker surface and/or drill, play the same area and see what happens?
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Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 12:22:54 PM »
Not going to lie, this feel like lane reading 101.  I should know this, but it's one of "those spots" that I get hung up on.
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JustRico

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 12:35:07 PM »
You bowling on old wood which is an earlier friction surface thus the ball was more than likely burning up but in the same sense it doesn't sound like, due to the condition laid out you could create a lot of room or reaction
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lefty50

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 12:38:45 PM »
Great topic... I have the exact problem. If I may say so, I don't think the answers you're getting are to the question you have posed. The question is not why you're having the problem, the question is how do you tell the difference between the two potential causes. I just came back from a practice session where I had the exact same issue, so this is fresh in my mind at the moment. I have to say that I run into this same issue time after time and I can't tell the answer either. The only thing I have been able to figure out is that if I take a weaker ball and I get a better reaction, my oil ball is burning up, whereas if the problem is really oil, the weaker ball will by default also slide. If the weaker ball fails to react, then I can advance to the next level of finding out how to get the oil ball to react more appropriately. However, until you know and can recognize which condition you're facing, you will be at a disadvantage as I feel I am.

For example, this morning at practice, I was throwing three identically cleaned balls with identical surface and similar, although I admit not equal, layouts. I truly believe, for purposes of this discussion, the layouts were close enough to not be materially significant to the discussion...)

I started throwing a AMF Darkness followed by a Brunswick Maxxed Out,  both of which looked weak, yet when I pulled out my Torrid Affair I got an increased reaction and stronger pin action. Therefore, I assumed that even though I was seeing substantial oil rings on all the balls, the Torrid Affair (although good) was not stronger than the other two balls and they must have been burning out.

Great question, I look forward to reading further discussion. I have much to learn in this area also.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 12:41:56 PM by lefty50 »

PLM

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 12:42:50 PM »
I bowl in three houses, all with wood lanes.  I have often found it helpful to look at how much oil is coming back on the ball.  I have a benchmark ball that I used for this purpose for a while (pearls generally don't work very well).  I would throw it once or twice in practice.  Even on freshly oiled lanes it would tell me there was less/more out there just by how solid the streaks on the bow tie flare lines were.

Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 01:24:56 PM »
I'll go into a little more detail.

My normal specs - 17-18 MPH, 325-350 RPM, axis tilt 17, rotation 45 (but can tone down to 30)

The tournament was a one day deal.  44 ft., high volume, 2:1 ratio, on old wood...and when I say old wood, I mean, there are visible patches in the heads.

On Friday night, there was a sweeper where they ran the tournament pattern over top of the league shot.  That was fun.  I threw straight up 10 with a Reax (1500, 45 x 3 1/4 x 30) and could hit the 2 pin (LH) square in the face.  Anything out stayed there.  I ended up pointing it, cutting the speed down to 15.5-16 MPH and just tried to pipe it up the lane. 

Toward the end of the set, I saw some guys getting a pinch of reaction out of shiny stuff/pearls, so I pulled out my Diva (shiny, 45 x 4 x 65...pin under ring, CG out) and got an inkling of motion.  Just prior to that I'm still seeing nice big oil rings on my Reax, but I was actually trying to go more direct and go up the back to try to pick up some push inside.  Lo and behold my first shot I leak, but get a little hand in and get some reaction (by reaction I mean there was some lateral movement).  Mind blown.  Some of the guys I traveled with said thay thought that I might be getting some burnout, but I was scoring OK (570...enough to profit in brakets) and left it alone.

OK, so the next day, fresh, stripped backends.  I bowl A squad because a) I need what backends are there b) I'm pretty sure the righties will blow a hole in the track by the B squad and this is a tough shot.  I start out with the Diva and have basically the same reaction.  My other options are a Brutal Nightmare (box finish, 45 x 5 x 50)which goes longer than the Diva, but just doesn't quite get there) and a 1500 Marauder Madness which i figure will burn up, too.

I bowl OK, but can't make a spare.  Then I see a lefty 2 pairs down from me hooking an IQ Tour Pearl.  Now, he's probably at 14-14.5 MPH, but he's getting actual hook playing up 5 (I got ZERO there) and creating some hold, too. 

So, on building on the OP, I would never in a million years have ever considered a pearl on this.  Wood or not, 44 ft and high volume I figure that's a good idea for shooting the corners.  When I see that Reax go 60 feet and never really do anything but spin and flare, I just don't see the friction. 

How do I get past this or is this one of those times you just make an educated guess?  My physical game is better than it should be coming off a long layoff, but I've got some real work to do on my equipment choices and moves.
Where are all my 2001-2006 posts?

JustRico

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 02:10:02 PM »
As I stated before if your rev rate is that high your layouts are TOO strong...the ball is flaring out which in turn creates am earlier than desired reaction (usually not visual) and can also create or mirror a carry down reaction...
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Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 02:32:33 PM »
As I stated before if your rev rate is that high your layouts are TOO strong...the ball is flaring out which in turn creates am earlier than desired reaction (usually not visual) and can also create or mirror a carry down reaction...

Funny thing is that I when i got the Reax, I posted some suggested layouts for this very condition and that's what Mo suggested.

It rolls great on house shots, but I'll have to reevaluate on touranment patterns.  Surface change may be in order.....or just throw it on house shot.

Where are all my 2001-2006 posts?

JustRico

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »
House shots EVERYTHING tend to roll good due to a build up of conditioner in the middle and friction outside therefore 'flaws' will show up differently
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Mongo

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2014, 02:41:02 PM »
House shots EVERYTHING tend to roll good due to a build up of conditioner in the middle and friction outside therefore 'flaws' will show up differently

Shhhhhh.  My 220 looks really good there.  :)
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Differentiating between slick conditions and early burn
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2014, 03:02:07 PM »
In addition to what Rico said, if the pattern is 44 ft. long you may be expecting to see more reaction than you actually will.  When you get used to seeing the ball boom back from the dry outside and then you bowl on something like this you need to have a different perspective on how much reaction you will see.  Watching somebody else's ball is a much different visual than watching your own.