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Author Topic: Disillusioned  (Read 10865 times)

Gizmo823

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Disillusioned
« on: November 18, 2013, 09:35:40 AM »
Sometimes you can have too much information.  I've spent the last several weeks really digging and getting super technical in an attempt to figure out some new ways to explain certain concepts to a customer who is having a lot of trouble understanding bowling in general.  To his credit, he really wants a full understanding of what's going on, but he's so new to all of this that the advanced stuff is really throwing him for a loop, mostly because he's trying to go too fast, and hops on one train really quickly and runs with it.  In the process however, my findings have been rather disappointing.  There are so many variables to bowling, the physics of it are such that regardless of what control you think you have over the outcome of a game, lane transition, layout, etc., you're relying on an astronomical number of things to work together in your favor every time you let go of the ball. 



Ball design has nowhere to go, no different than tire technology.  They may find ways to alter and adjust things, but durability is about the only thing they can hope to improve on.  You can reshuffle the deck as much as you'd like, but the cards will never change.  You can't overcome physics. 



Jayhawk's ball surface scanner has shown and proven that ball surface changes so significantly over the course of just one league set that what you think you're doing to the surface of your ball and what grit you think you're keeping it at are uncontrollably inconsistent. 



Now what you think I might be saying here is actually opposite of the point I'm making.  There are so many variables in the numbers and the science, that you the bowler are really the only thing that makes a difference.  The amount of variables make it IMPOSSIBLE to control anything mathematically, what really matters is a bowler's intuition, vision, and ability to read ball reaction.  It's literally an every single shot adjustment, even if that means not making one.  Humans are simply not accurate enough to be able to realistically apply the required consistency to take advantage of the applied mathematics.  All the layouts, ball design, surfaces, lane surfaces, lane oils, ball motion studies, what have you, that all doesn't really amount to anything.  The person throwing the ball is literally all that matters, we might as well go back to throwing plastic balls.  All this technology just adds a bunch of extra steps and confusion to something so complicated that it's reduced to simplicity due to factors that are outside reasonable control.  Or in other words, there are so few things that we as humans can actually control or affect that it's literally impossible to take advantage of the endlessly complex mathematics that there are to work with.  There is no spoon. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

lifted rillo

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2013, 10:14:07 AM »
+1,000,000

I have a teammate that is very concerned with numbers. I told him that he didn't need to worry about new balls and numbers as much as he did with keeping his equipment clean and hitting his mark. Dude could be an easy 220 guy, but he is very inconsistent at times and refuses to move his feet left or right. He is inconsistent because he doesn't think cleaning his stuff is worth it. I showed him a belt mark in his track and he still didn't believe me.

What I'm trying to say is, most people know just enough to make themselves sound ridiculous.

K.I.S.S - Clean your balls to keep their reaction consistent, and don't be afraid to move.

BallReviews-Removed0385

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2013, 10:19:38 AM »

The "science" of bowling can be staggering if you become so immersed in it.  What really matters, is can a bowler read ball reaction (since it changes quickly), and can he adjust to the changing environment? 

Assuming body mechanics allow one to repeat shots with some reliability, an educated set of eyes will tell you all you need to know.  What we need to be able to answer for ourselves several times during a league session is "did I throw that one different, or did the lane change?"  Once you decide the answer, then you should commit to it 100% so you don't start changing everything when perhaps changing one thing will suit you better.

The "numbers" actually mean very little once you get to that point.  Remember that we all have nights when we are seeing things more clearly than others too.  The game is challenging enough without us making it harder by having too much information swirling through the brain in any given moment.

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2013, 10:26:14 AM »
It can be summed up in my line to the kids looking for the magic layout-

At some point you need to bowl.

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2013, 10:27:35 AM »
You have no idea how perfectly that applies to my current situation with said customer . .

It can be summed up in my line to the kids looking for the magic layout-

At some point you need to bowl.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Pinbuster

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2013, 11:18:11 AM »
I'm not sure ball technology has nowhere to go. You probably could have had some saying that in the late 70's and 80's before 2 piece cores, urethane, resins and particles came in.

But I agree that at some point you have to throw the ball effectively. All the drilling, all the gadgets, all the cleaning, all the surface prep means nothing if the bowler doesn't perform.

scotts33

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2013, 11:23:58 AM »
All the information a bowler can gather is good.  It's no good if you can't apply that information correctly make good choices and execute shots.  Repeatable shots are what any sport is about.
Scott

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
Basing it on current technology, USBC's ball motion study, and physics, it really does have nowhere to go now . . they didn't really know much in the 70s, and now that they do, you can't make cores that do anything more than what they do, and coverstocks are exactly like tires.  Or rather I should say it has nowhere relevant or significant to go.  Ball motion has remained largely unchanged over the last decade or so, it's been adjusted due to certain trends going this way or that, but now look at balls like the Melee and Eruption Pro.  Those are really old school reactions . .

I'm not sure ball technology has nowhere to go. You probably could have had some saying that in the late 70's and 80's before 2 piece cores, urethane, resins and particles came in.

But I agree that at some point you have to throw the ball effectively. All the drilling, all the gadgets, all the cleaning, all the surface prep means nothing if the bowler doesn't perform.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

lilpossum1

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 11:45:51 AM »
This is probably the most true and educational post on this page

Jorge300

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 01:39:39 PM »
Gizmo and others,
    I think you are spot on in some of your assessments. The real intangible is the bowler. If you can repeat shots, make proper decisions on ball and/or surface, and react to it, learn to read what the lane is telling you, and make the proper move from that information...you will score rather well.
 
    But I disagree with the notion that ball technology has nowhere to go. Just look at what is coming from Radical today. Looking at not what the ball weights are before drilling, but after drilling. I think this is the next step. Weight blocks will come out where the ball might be illegal sitting on the shelf, but once the hole are put in it, you will bring the ball into legal limits and create differentials well beyond what we see now. We are just beginning to understand this, and as this grows, you will see companies designing equipment to take advantage of that. JMHO
Jorge300

itsallaboutme

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2013, 02:10:41 PM »
The ball must be legal sitting on the shelf or it doesn't get the USBC stamp.  The key is AFTER they are drilled, because the only devices used to test a drilled ball are a dodo scale and a durometer. 

Ball technology is at a point of diminishing returns.  There are guys averaging over 250 for a season and at least one guy did it in 2 different leagues.  How much better do you need to make the ball?

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2013, 02:26:53 PM »
itsallaboutme beat me to it . . they're into diminishing returns.  But this is the kind of thing that keeps selling balls.  They're marketing this stuff as revolutionary and game changing, but it's not.  Designing core placement to minimize the change from design to actual post drilled specs is a great theoretical idea, but as far as application goes?  Insignificant.  Just because it conceptually sounds good doesn't mean its actual application is relevant.  And if they increase differentials, what difference would it make?  More aggressive reactions cause as many problems as they solve.  If MoRich and Radical produced such higher quality equipment, you'd see more people using them and more success with them.  Again, there will be several new ideas applied, more "best ever" or "most aggressive ever" marketing put out by the ball companies, but the reality is rather ho hum.  Physics and the limitations of the game have capped ball technology, and if I were these ball companies, I'd be freaking out right now.  They ran out of applicable or relevant technology a decade ago, and they're about to run out of gimmicks or wool. 

Gizmo and others,
    I think you are spot on in some of your assessments. The real intangible is the bowler. If you can repeat shots, make proper decisions on ball and/or surface, and react to it, learn to read what the lane is telling you, and make the proper move from that information...you will score rather well.
 
    But I disagree with the notion that ball technology has nowhere to go. Just look at what is coming from Radical today. Looking at not what the ball weights are before drilling, but after drilling. I think this is the next step. Weight blocks will come out where the ball might be illegal sitting on the shelf, but once the hole are put in it, you will bring the ball into legal limits and create differentials well beyond what we see now. We are just beginning to understand this, and as this grows, you will see companies designing equipment to take advantage of that. JMHO
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

scotts33

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2013, 02:43:11 PM »
You can say the same thing about golf equipment.  If we gained 17 yards as TMAG advertises for every driver they come out with every 4 months we'd all be hitting it 300+ by now.   :D
Scott

Gizmo823

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2013, 02:54:12 PM »
Exactly.  But the problem that more distance solves creates another one.  If you slice or draw the ball off the tee, you're in a lot more trouble than you'd have been with a shorter drive. 

You can say the same thing about golf equipment.  If we gained 17 yards as TMAG advertises for every driver they come out with every 4 months we'd all be hitting it 300+ by now.   :D
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

scotts33

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Re: Disillusioned
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 02:56:36 PM »
If you can hit miraculous recovery shots like TW or Phil no issues but most of us hackers hit two in the bushes or top one into a bunker.  lol

Exactly.  But the problem that more distance solves creates another one.  If you slice or draw the ball off the tee, you're in a lot more trouble than you'd have been with a shorter drive. 

You can say the same thing about golf equipment.  If we gained 17 yards as TMAG advertises for every driver they come out with every 4 months we'd all be hitting it 300+ by now.   :D
Scott