BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: xrayjay on May 27, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
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Do certified coaches get irked by non certified Joe coaching others at the center?
I'm not going to lie, though I am not a cert coach, I think I know a little more than these paper coaches. Not saying all are not up to par, I'm just stating my opinion and many will agree with me. There are many of you who are better coaches than some of these cert ones.
I asked this question because one day several years ago, I was working with a coach and that coach asked me who have I seen in the past. Well, I mentioned some names and that coach was a little irked. Also, there's a local cert coach in one of the bowling centers I go to to help some bowlers. Well, that coach sends this vibe towards me like I was invading his property. In fact, two or three bowlers have seen this coach and sought me after seeing him. I understand he needs to make money, but these bowlers call me and I meet them where they want to. Even if it's at his house to bowl.
Figjam:
I've learned from some of the great coaches, some are HOF/legends in the sport, and some "paperless" coaches who just have the eye for the game - also famus. (thanks to all of them) I used my experience from working with these coaches to help those who asked me for help - for free of course, they donate whatever, like a NIB. (thanks again WHO) I may not have reached my goal of 215-225 ave, but I'm happy for those that I've helped did so. They started at 190'ish and now are 215 to 224 average. Also, I get a lot of joy from newbies who start at 160 and finish the season 10 to 20 sticks more. I asked not to get paid, because many have helped me over the years and it's my little way of giving back. (I have coaching/teaching experience from other sports)
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From what I have seen, the paper certificate means nothing.
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I have seen this same thing on some online forums. Some of the certified coaches jump on bowlers for offering their advice. There aren't many certified coaches in my area so I have never worked with one. Most of the "coaching" I have had has been from other bowlers with more experience than me and from the pro shop owners.
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I have seen this same thing on some online forums. Some of the certified coaches jump on bowlers for offering their advice. There aren't many certified coaches in my area so I have never worked with one. Most of the "coaching" I have had has been from other bowlers with more experience than me and from the pro shop owners.
I'm pretty sure I might get jumped on here too. :D I'm not worried about it.
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We have a local guy who has his level 1 or 2 (doesn't matter) certificate. He works with the juniors and while I appreciate someone taking the time to help the younger bowlers, he still doesn't know diddly squat about bowling.
And he isn't the only one I have seen in that category either. One of the best coaches I have had lessons from, Ron Clifton, doesn't have any certification. Dude just knows bowling.
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I agree with Milo. Kinda funny how sometimes the best coaches are the ones without certifications . . I'm the same way xray, I've got some ridiculous minds surrounding me.
To answer the question though, yes they do. Or maybe they don't get offended, they just like to puff their chests out and wave their certification around. Plus there's a lot of difference between offending someone and them going out of their way to act offended. Nobody likes getting their toes stepped on, but some guys spend too much time sticking their feet out where people are walking . .
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Agree with some of the points being made. You don't need a piece of paper if you have a great eye for the game. Central Ohio has a lot of good high school programs and several centers with well run youth programs. School coaches and parents here in our area seem to take the certified coaches a little more seriously when you work with their kids especially at the high school level. And we do have some high school coaches who take group instruction with a couple of the more well known certified coaches in our area.
With that being said though, I am a bronze certified and plan on attending the silver here at my local center in July. I am a sucker for knowledge and the person teaching the class is very well qualified. I just took a lesson with this gentleman and his use of Ubersense is something that I would like to incorporate into my coaching strategies.
We have a couple of silver certified in our area who wouldn't know the first thing about teaching a two-hander, helping a kid straighten out the armswing plane, or even coming up with a strategy to play a lane condition based on what the practice session is telling them. These are items that good coaches have to be able to apply in theory and practicality to help their students out. Some folks are good at concepts but bad at applying them without much practice. The one guy took the class because he was really into bowling at the time. I do not know if he even still bowls or not because it has been a couple of years since I seen him.
I personally have had lessons from the highest level of coaching (a couple of different golds like Jasnau, Hoppe, Hatfield, and Marquez) to a player in our area with no certification that had a great set of eyes when he wanted to coach bowlers. I try to incorporate what they teach me into my own coaching when I get the chance.
I might have rambled on and off topic, but the certification is a mixed bag for me. I am glad I did it and renewed it. I also think that high school coaches who are serious about their programs need to take something. Level I or II, the NFHS Fundamentals of Coaching class, anything that helps how to deal with athletes of all skill and sizes.
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I must add too, there are certain bowlers I've helped that I feel needs to see people/coaches with much more knowledge than me. And I advice them to do so, but it's up to them to go and make that move.
I know my limits in helping other bowlers. If a two-handed bowler came up to me, I would be honest and say to him/her, that I'm not knowledgable in that style. Even with some "crankers" too.
I'm not out there selling it, it's by word of mouth. Also, it's summer and already I have bowlers calling/texting me for help.
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I have both Bronze and Level 1 certification.
Does this make me a better coach then you? No
What it gets me is insurance and easy of mind to parents that I've had a background check and have no issues in that regard.
I never charge for lessons, as the 1st man stated, it's a way of giving back, for all those that have helped me.
It only takes one allocation from a student, to ruin your name and a ton of money, (yours) to prove your innocent of that charge.
I'm sure your local center would welcome you all on Saturday mornings, there's a lot of young people and very few coach's.
Thanks
Bob
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It's good to hear there are people here willing to help other bowlers with their game, especially the next generation of bowlers. Thank you guys for taking the time and making the effort to promote the sport.
I know for certain that I would not be a good coach. I understand the game fairly well for the length of time I have been bowling, but doubt I could transfer that knowledge to someone else effectively.
I also want to be clear, I'm not discounting the USBC certification process. Just that it doesn't mean someone is a good coach because they have it. :)
It's the same in my current line of work. There are all kinds of certifications out there, but they don't mean the person knows the job.
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Bob, I'd love to help the youth that's for sure. I was asked before by the manager of the center to help with the youth, but I took a year off from bowling after my daughter was born. Also, the way they do things here is different when I was a kid. Maybe I was mistaken, but it seemed this way.....
A kid will be bowling and 3 to 5 different coaches will approach the kid and help the kid. I had one, or two at the most, when I bowled youth. I would see someone tell the kid to push away this way, and few minutes later, another way for example. It seems confusing to the kids. Only a few will have the same person helping them. The rest gets whom ever is walking up and down the center.
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I am one of the guys who have had James coach me, he does have a good eye for the game. Before bowling with James, I avg 200 and used to only want to hook the ball across the lane. Since having James Coach me my I now avg 215. He not only taught me how to read the lanes, but he also taught me how to play straight. Before James I would not dare play up 5, after practicing and having him coach me, I can play up 5 with no problem. Yes I bought him a NIB ball for all he has done for me. The knowledge he has shared with me is priceless.
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I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified
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I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified
Ah, the truth is indeed a bitter pill to swallow.
Rico, you gave them too much to swallow.
I wonder, (I don't know) if, as part of bronze and silver (and whatever level) coaching certificate testing, coaches are "given" 3 or 5 people/kids/adults to coach and the testing results see what was done for these people??
Did the coach help them?
How did the coach help them?
OR
is the certification just classes to see what the coach has learned?
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WHO! ;) RW just keep it up bro..
JustRico, thanks for your help too. Just came from practice and did some target practice, that swing change really helped a lot. Getting ready for my return to the lanes ;)
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A little rabbit trail here, but one of the bigger problems I see with coaching in general right now is OVER coaching. I see SO many kids at the high school and college level that have gotten so dependent on coaches that if their coach isn't in their back pocket, they're worthless. They will throw a shot, and instead of thinking it through themselves, they instantly look back at their coach for a response or direction.
I'm a big concept guy. If I can get a concept across and get the wheels turning, most of the time they will keep turning. A lot of coaches will just polish and oil the wheels, but never get them moving.
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I have a level I certification, which in the big scheme of things is not much. I got mine do to the fact that I have kids in a youth league and one of the coaches overheard me helping one of my chidren and asked if I would be willing to help other kids in the league. The only requirement was to get my level I and have a back ground check done.
To answer the posted question, it does not bother me if non-certified "Joe bowler" is coaching someone at the center. I figure it as helping to grow the sport.
I agree with Gizmo in that when I am helping the kids in the youth league, I want them to think about what is going on and what they need to do. It is easy to say stand here and throw it there, or your topping the ball or whatever the case may be. I usually ask questions such as where are you satnding? What mark are you trying to hit? What did your ball do? What do you think you need to do? Of course this is not all inclusive of what is going on, but I figure if I can "coach" myself out of a job and they are thinking and making adjustments then I am on the right track.
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What is the criteria for someone to claim the honorary title of "Bowling Coach".
Based on this post the USBC doesn't have it right.
I understand what is trying to be stated here. Some coming out of those certification classes should not be coaching. But is it everyone?
Where is the disconnect? What the are these courses doing wrong?
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There is a huge difference between an instructor, coach & teacher...
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There is a huge difference between an instructor, coach & teacher...
Instructor specializes on something.
Coach develops and trains
Teacher teaches function and educates
I'm going by our karate lineage from grandmaster, sensei, senpai, and kohai...
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Great definition
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charlest that is what we did on Sunday morning in the Bronze training. We had a group to work with. The toughest one for me was the older guy who muscled everything in his swing. He just was not going to even try to free his swing up.
The sad thing was the pro shop guy back there telling one guy that don't worry, we will get you guys back together after they finish screwing you up. Thanks for the support back there Mr. Professional! LOL
I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified
Ah, the truth is indeed a bitter pill to swallow.
Rico, you gave them too much to swallow.
I wonder, (I don't know) if, as part of bronze and silver (and whatever level) coaching certificate testing, coaches are "given" 3 or 5 people/kids/adults to coach and the testing results see what was done for these people??
Did the coach help them?
How did the coach help them?
OR
is the certification just classes to see what the coach has learned?
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charlest that is what we did on Sunday morning in the Bronze training. We had a group to work with. The toughest one for me was the older guy who muscled everything in his swing. He just was not going to even try to free his swing up.
The sad thing was the pro shop guy back there telling one guy that don't worry, we will get you guys back together after they finish screwing you up. Thanks for the support back there Mr. Professional! LOL
I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified
Ah, the truth is indeed a bitter pill to swallow.
Rico, you gave them too much to swallow.
I wonder, (I don't know) if, as part of bronze and silver (and whatever level) coaching certificate testing, coaches are "given" 3 or 5 people/kids/adults to coach and the testing results see what was done for these people??
Did the coach help them?
How did the coach help them?
OR
is the certification just classes to see what the coach has learned?
Mike,
Then that is the important factor that most people don't see, in the certification process. If they're making you "do" real coaching and testing your results, that is a very important part of the process. It's similar to what is termed "Student teaching", when people are trained to be teachers in college. My wife, way back in the 60s, had to do many, many hours of student teaching to learn how to deal with real students in real environments. She put in maybe 2 full years of actual teaching,(between her Bachelor's degree and her Master's degree) evaluated constantly by her own teacher before she was granted a teacher's license when she graduated.
If they do this for bronze and silver level coaches, these people SHOULD, IN THEORY, be fully able to coach. Coaching is non-trivial and involves serious application of psychology and the study of people and their behavior.
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I don't believe you need a certification to be a good coach. I know silver level coaches I wouldn't use for coaching and others without a certification that I would use for coaching.
I have the silver certification. The training helped me develop my coach's eye and explain various concepts. In both the bronze class and silver class we worked with individual bowlers. During the silver class two students worked with each bowler. The bowlers were volunteers that bowled at the center that hosted the class. We met with the bowler, asked them various questions, watched them bowl and then prepared an analysis. We met witht the class insutructer (Rod Ross) and discussed our findings and recommendations. He provided feedback on our analysis. We then met with the bowler.
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I've been the unofficial coach among my group of friends for the better part of 20 years. I've absolutely had a few certified coaches get upset with me. I recently had a coach tell me I was flat out wrong when explaining different spare shooting techniques. He insisted there was only one correct way to convert the 3-6-10 (strike ball and hook into it). He told me "no real coach would ever teach you to shoot that spare straight", and "shooting it with plastic will chop more often". I personally convert everything (that isn't double wood) with plastic, but I have no problem showing someone how to shoot spares however they are most comfortable doing it. Some people are more comfortable with a simple 3-6-9 system, others prefer using a pivot point, etc.
I would love to get certified, if for no other reason than so I don't have to listen to other coaches explain how their piece of paper outweighs my 30+ years of experience.
On a different note. My town has a new bowling alley going up over the summer, and now instead of the nearest centers being 25 miles away, this one will be about a mile away. We have no coaches certified within 20 miles according to the USBC website. I think it would be cool to get certified and maybe get a proper Youth league going when the new center opens. A good friend of mine who also bowls, has 2 kids getting close to High School, so maybe if we both get certified, and set a goal of getting a bowling team into the high school?
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I have been coaching for a long time, and have recently gotten my certification as a Bronze level coach. I got my certification to lose the stigma of "you are not a certified coach". By getting my certification, it opens up opportunities to coach professionally and not just as a good bowler trying to help friends and family. There are a lot of certified coaches that do not know all of the ins and outs of coaching. I recommend to the good coaches out there to get their credentials and become certified so you can tell the less experienced certified coaches to go jump in the lake.
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Your statements may be true about the individuals you all have mentioned in your replies, but I guarantee there are excellent coaches out there who are certified.
Don't label the courses the USBC is providing as worthless and a waste of time. USBC is trying to provide solid material and hands on training to develop coaches. This sport needs them desperately. We get it not everyone coming out of these courses are true coaches, but you get that every where.
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This is a topic that can be debated forever. I am a Sliver level coach. I have enough intelligence to know when I finished both the Bronze and Sliver cert's I needed experience & More training to be a good coach.
Over the many years of bowling, I have gone to some top level coaches for my game. Fred Borden, Ron Hatfield, Jeri Edwards, Andy Parker, Joe solowinski, & Bill Spigner. Every single one of them has different methods to coach. So I picked who I liked and made it simple for me to learn. The best thing I ever heard is from Fred Borden is ( what is the 1st rule of bowling) answer (there are no rules). so one size does not fit all!! I have taken things I like from each one to improve my bowling and my coaching. I went to all of these coaches to learn how they coach and what I can learn from them. My coaching has been mentored by Fred Borden, Andy Parker, & Ron Hatfield. I have worked with all 3 on my coaching and they are the best in the world. So all of you non-certified coaches who think you are good there are Reasons you need to get certified and work with a experienced coach. you & I can't and will not know everything about bowling on our own or from any class room teachings. We need to work long and hard to became as good as the above coaches. Right now I work & run clinics with Ron Hatfield, I hope some day to be half a good as Ron. So for you Certified and Non certified We can always get better we must work it like it is our job & passion. The only thing Ron does is coach that is why is the fastest to get to Gold and Is at the Top of his game. I would say yes the truly Elite coach's should be upset by the non-certified. It takes a lot of time, Money and hard work to become a Gold Coach. Also would you ask this same question about a Teaching Golf Pro?
Just .02
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This is a topic that can be debated forever. I am a Sliver level coach. I have enough intelligence to know when I finished both the Bronze and Sliver cert's I needed experience & More training to be a good coach.
Over the many years of bowling, I have gone to some top level coaches for my game. Fred Borden, Ron Hatfield, Jeri Edwards, Andy Parker, Joe solowinski, & Bill Spigner. Every single one of them has different methods to coach. So I picked who I liked and made it simple for me to learn. The best thing I ever heard is from Fred Borden is ( what is the 1st rule of bowling) answer (there are no rules). so one size does not fit all!! I have taken things I like from each one to improve my bowling and my coaching. I went to all of these coaches to learn how they coach and what I can learn from them. My coaching has been mentored by Fred Borden, Andy Parker, & Ron Hatfield. I have worked with all 3 on my coaching and they are the best in the world. So all of you non-certified coaches who think you are good there are Reasons you need to get certified and work with a experienced coach. you & I can't and will not know everything about bowling on our own or from any class room teachings. We need to work long and hard to became as good as the above coaches. Right now I work & run clinics with Ron Hatfield, I hope some day to be half a good as Ron. So for you Certified and Non certified We can always get better we must work it like it is our job & passion. The only thing Ron does is coach that is why is the fastest to get to Gold and Is at the Top of his game. I would say yes the truly Elite coach's should be upset by the non-certified. It takes a lot of time, Money and hard work to become a Gold Coach. Also would you ask this same question about a Teaching Golf Pro?
Just .02
Personally, I think Andy Parker is a clown. I worked with him some at a BTM Super School and considered it a waste of time.
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What a closed minded individual you must be, Andy is in the Top50 coaches in the USA. What a shame you didn't take advantage of that golden opportunity.
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What a closed minded individual you must be, Andy is in the Top50 coaches in the USA. What a shame you didn't take advantage of that golden opportunity.
Yea, closed minded. I've had lessons from Rod and Teresa Ross, Rod Clifton, Bill Hall, Mike Jasnau, John Jowdy etc. I also went to a Hank Haney golf camp, so I know what a good coach should be like in that type of environment. The attendees of the school paid a lot of money for the lessons, not to mention travel and room expense.
Maybe 'ol Andy was having a bad week, but it was still a waste of time when he was supposed to be working with us. Maybe Andy needs to spend less time on the phone, less time telling us how great he would have been if not for an injury and more time actually teaching.
Here is what I call being a clown, being LATE for the coaching session, all three days. Spending as much time on the phone as working with the students, giving me such priceless information as "using alcohol to clean your ball will cause the material to crystallize". Oh yea, real golden opportunity missed there. Glad I paid money for it.
The top 50 coaches ranking means nothing. I know one guy locally who was and maybe still is on the list for several years and never gave a lesson during that time.
Having said all that, to be fair, he seemed to be a nice guy. But I didn't pay for nice.
Since your BobOhio, I assume you must know Andy Parker personally and feel the need to stick up for him. If that's the case, tell him I thought he sucked. ;D
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Will do
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Just An FYI to Milo. I worked with some other coaches I did not like. I will not name them because it would not be fair to them. Some are real well know, I will keep my opinion to myself. Others in the class loved them and thought they helped them. So who am I to say I am correct and they are bad coaches. We will never please 100% of the bowling population. But as coaches we want to do our best to make sure everyone gets what they came to us for, to be better bowlers and have fun doing it. 1st I was never scared to tell any of the coaches I was not satisfied and need more info or help. They thanked me for being honest. I know Bobohio from many clinics I traveled to in Ohio and he came to my area. He is a good guy. Calling Andy a clown just shows who you really are. For what ever reason you did not like what he was doing you should have told him. I am the most Black & White, blunt, tell it like is person you will ever meet. No reason to be rude on a forum where they can't defend themselves or explain the situation. Unless you have the balls to say it to that persons face don't use a forum to bad mouth someone. I met Andy through Fred & Ron I don't think either man would work with a Clown. I think Andy is a great coach, good family man and a stand up guy.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion that is what makes the USA great. This is mine like or hate, it's your choice. I don't care either way
You All have a great day
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Just An FYI to Milo. I worked with some other coaches I did not like. I will not name them because it would not be fair to them. Some are real well know, I will keep my opinion to myself. Others in the class loved them and thought they helped them. So who am I to say I am correct and they are bad coaches. We will never please 100% of the bowling population. But as coaches we want to do our best to make sure everyone gets what they came to us for, to be better bowlers and have fun doing it. 1st I was never scared to tell any of the coaches I was not satisfied and need more info or help. They thanked me for being honest. I know Bobohio from many clinics I traveled to in Ohio and he came to my area. He is a good guy. Calling Andy a clown just shows who you really are. For what ever reason you did not like what he was doing you should have told him. I am the most Black & White, blunt, tell it like is person you will ever meet. No reason to be rude on a forum where they can't defend themselves or explain the situation. Unless you have the balls to say it to that persons face don't use a forum to bad mouth someone. I met Andy through Fred & Ron I don't think either man would work with a Clown. I think Andy is a great coach, good family man and a stand up guy.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion that is what makes the USA great. This is mine like or hate, it's your choice. I don't care either way
You All have a great day
Then maybe you want to go back and read "bobs" comment.
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Never heard of Andy Parker and don't know the situation, but like anyone would tell a coach they didn't like them or think they were doing it right . . like that would be productive at all? Chest would puff up, you'd get the run down of all their accomplishments and accolades, and then they'd storm off and go run you down to everybody else they could find.
The issue is that coaching isn't something you go get a certification for and then you can coach. I can go grab anybody out of a league who can go through and get their Bronze certification and still not know a thing. Lots of people out there who can answer questions right on a test, but actual coaching is a different story. We had a local certified coach that "coaches" the youth on Saturday mornings telling a bunch of high school standouts moving up to adult leagues that they shouldn't be bowling the local scratch league because it would be "over their heads." Might as well tell graduates not to go to college . .
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The issue is that coaching isn't something you go get a certification for and then you can coach. I can go grab anybody out of a league who can go through and get their Bronze certification and still not know a thing. Lots of people out there who can answer questions right on a test, but actual coaching is a different story. We had a local certified coach that "coaches" the youth on Saturday mornings telling a bunch of high school standouts moving up to adult leagues that they shouldn't be bowling the local scratch league because it would be "over their heads." Might as well tell graduates not to go to college . .
So how does someone become a coach?
What does a person do when there is noone like a Ric Hamlin or Ron Clifton in the area to teach them?
Where does someone get the information to become a coach without going through some kind of course or certification process?
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Study the game as much as you can. Some people "get it", most don't. Just like good bowlers "get it" and other guys that have better physical games don't and never beat the the guys that do. Some people have the eye to coach, most don't. The biggest part that people don't understand is the cause/effect. It's not as simple as saying "you're doing this wrong, do this instead." You have to be able to identify what a person is doing and correct what is causing it to happen.
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My personal opinion is that there are many that get it...the flip side is practical application - how & when to apply knowledge...also there is the individuals eye and the speed with which one sees and can 'critique' any 'issues'
I've fortunately been blessed with a quick eye and somewhat analytical perception of the bowling environment...
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I guess what everyone is saying is that it's not like getting the certifications is a bad thing, it just doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. And being that so many guys have certifications and still don't have much of a clue, that reduces the meaningfulness of the certification. Not saying there's not good information there, but there are tons of people out there who are good at retaining information, but don't have a clue how to apply it.
How to become a coach? That's hard to say because it happens different for everyone. Just like saying how do you become a mentor or something, you just find you have an aptitude for it and learn. I'd be willing to guess that the good coaches out there didn't just decide they were going to be a coach and then took the appropriate steps to become one. They just naturally found out they were good at it and kind of fell into it.
The issue is that coaching isn't something you go get a certification for and then you can coach. I can go grab anybody out of a league who can go through and get their Bronze certification and still not know a thing. Lots of people out there who can answer questions right on a test, but actual coaching is a different story. We had a local certified coach that "coaches" the youth on Saturday mornings telling a bunch of high school standouts moving up to adult leagues that they shouldn't be bowling the local scratch league because it would be "over their heads." Might as well tell graduates not to go to college . .
So how does someone become a coach?
What does a person do when there is noone like a Ric Hamlin or Ron Clifton in the area to teach them?
Where does someone get the information to become a coach without going through some kind of course or certification process?
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Gizmo..+1
I don't like being labeled as a "bowling" coach. I prefer the word "helping others" instead. I'm not worthy to be mentioned with great certified and non certified coaches.....now for the "eye of the game".....
I'm not sure if the years in Martial arts, boxing, and other organized sports had to do with my ability to see things differently than others. For example, watching boxers like Pac-man, Tyson, Money May, and those around me growing up, you could see "habits" (my dad called it) these athletes do in the ring. Body position vs foot position, fainting, blah blah blah blah...the YEARS of being exposed to these sports, IMO helps a person develop that vision. But having the eye, is just small part of being a good coach.
Not showing up late and not being on the phone while your paying clients are waiting for your services is one way to be a good coach...
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I'd be willing to guess that the good coaches out there didn't just decide they were going to be a coach and then took the appropriate steps to become one. They just naturally found out they were good at it and kind of fell into it.
I guess this is where we disagree. I can see someone making a choice to becoming a coach and find out they are really good at it. You don't know until you try. I don't think you just fall into it. You need to have a passion for it and want to do it.
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Here is why I could never be a coach.
I have been at the ITRC in Arlington practicing for the open and the coaches there have to coach all types. They are trying to help the 120 bowler become a 150 bowler, as well as a 210 bowler become a 220 bowler.
That is 2 totally different areas of coaching.
We as experienced bowlers could all probably offer some advice to the 120 average bowler to assist them on their way to 150.
But how many of us seriously could see that one little flaw in a 210 bowler to make them a 220 bowler?
It all depends on what expectations you have. If you are a 175-190 average bowler and expect after 1 coaching session to be ready for the PBA tour, you might want to re-assess yourself.
I watched a Mike J session at Reno with one of my 220 average teammates last year. He doesn't try to re-make your game. He helps you excel at what you do well already while giving you ideas to improve upon.
Maybe he'll catch that you are off balance at the line because your back swing is not straight back. He'll provide you a drill to work on to straighten your back swing which should improve your balance which should improve your shot making.
Most good coaches will give you drills or ways to improve your game based on what you want to do, not on what they believe is the right way to bowl.
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The last comment is perhaps the truest . . One of my favorite sayings that I created/adopted at the beginning of leagues last year is that I have to "make what is important to my customer/student important to me." Obviously you want to make your customer or student happy. But not everyone wants to be a pro, not everyone wants to average 220. Sometimes if you don't make their desires important to you, you don't quite give them 100%. A lot of coaches don't like to hear that people don't want to be "the best they can be." I've always wanted to give customers and students the best I can give them, or do what's best for them. But I realized that my definition of that and their definition could be two totally different things.
Another thing that is big is working with what the person has to offer, like you said below. Some coaches try to take people and make them textbook. The majority of people aren't textbook. You may do irreversible damage to someone's game if you change something that maybe isn't textbook, but something unique about their game that isn't necessarily hurting them. That requires having a good eye. Something may be odd or quirky, but if it's consistent, you just work to make it better. Yeah, some things might have to be changed if they're causing a problem, but more often than not you can clean up someone's existing game without having to change much.
Sometimes you don't even need to do much with form, sometimes it's mental. There's a kid here in town who has a great physical game, but he already overthinks it, so the LAST thing I'd want to do is make a comment about his physical game before his mental game is ready to handle it. I just talk to him about relaxing and getting more comfortable, then when he is, THEN we can make a few adjustments. And sometimes getting the mental game fixed automatically sorts out some physical game kinks, because mental issues can cause physical issues. Gotta make sure you fix the cause and not the symptom.
It's definitely complicated though.
Here is why I could never be a coach.
I have been at the ITRC in Arlington practicing for the open and the coaches there have to coach all types. They are trying to help the 120 bowler become a 150 bowler, as well as a 210 bowler become a 220 bowler.
That is 2 totally different areas of coaching.
We as experienced bowlers could all probably offer some advice to the 120 average bowler to assist them on their way to 150.
But how many of us seriously could see that one little flaw in a 210 bowler to make them a 220 bowler?
It all depends on what expectations you have. If you are a 175-190 average bowler and expect after 1 coaching session to be ready for the PBA tour, you might want to re-assess yourself.
I watched a Mike J session at Reno with one of my 220 average teammates last year. He doesn't try to re-make your game. He helps you excel at what you do well already while giving you ideas to improve upon.
Maybe he'll catch that you are off balance at the line because your back swing is not straight back. He'll provide you a drill to work on to straighten your back swing which should improve your balance which should improve your shot making.
Most good coaches will give you drills or ways to improve your game based on what you want to do, not on what they believe is the right way to bowl.
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But there are some things you can't over look. You definitely don't want someone screwing up their knee, wrist, elbow, or shoulder.
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Obviously . .
But there are some things you can't over look. You definitely don't want someone screwing up their knee, wrist, elbow, or shoulder.
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Yes it's entirely possible. But I can't imagine it happening that way much. I can see someone finding out they have the skill for it and THEN pursuing it, but I doubt you see many people that just out of the blue decide they want to be a coach and then end up being great at it. I can't see anyone pursuing something they don't have an interest in, and usually interest is derived from proficiency. Sometimes it's different, but in a sport like bowling, I'd be willing to bet you fall into it a lot more than you decide you want to pursue it.
I'd be willing to guess that the good coaches out there didn't just decide they were going to be a coach and then took the appropriate steps to become one. They just naturally found out they were good at it and kind of fell into it.
I guess this is where we disagree. I can see someone making a choice to becoming a coach and find out they are really good at it. You don't know until you try. I don't think you just fall into it. You need to have a passion for it and want to do it.
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Their certification does not mean much. Who is certifying them for what?
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Their certification does not mean much. Who is certifying them for what?
It is primarily meant to teach kids, also to provide a unified approach to teaching this great sport.
I come from an area where there hasn't been any kind of coach for decades. You basically had parents, uncles, or grandparents teaching their kids how to bowl. Their teaching method comes right from the 1970s.. Play second arrow, don't drop your shoulder, stay upright at foul line, and shand hands with head pin. Not a good method when a kid is trying to turn the ball.
The big issue are the kids that are trying to throw two handed. Basically they told not to do it. Do these kids listen? "No!". So I see a group of kids trying to throw a ball two handed and they are going to get hurt. Their backs and hips are all out of place and twisted.
The same thing goes with kids who put any kind of revs on the ball. They are left a lone. No one knows what to do. Again we have kids trying to turn the ball, and they are doing it incorrectly.
Imagine someone wanting to get involved and teach the local youth bowling. Now getting certified means you took a course provided by the USBC (A National Organization in the Sport Bowling. Wow! Imagine that.). These courses were set up by some of the best coaches and best bowlers in the organization. These courses provide the materials and hands on training so someone can coach and teach bowling.
Now we have people on this site that down play this concept. Only way you should become a coach is I gues you fall into it.
Apparently by some on this site I shouldn't get involved with the youth program. I don't have the crendentials to teach bowling, I took a course and that is not enough.
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If you're talking basics and getting kids off on the right foot, that's waaay different than being a coach. That being said, nobody said getting certified was a bad thing, just generally not as good as you may think. You can pull someone off the street who knows nothing about bowling that can pass the Bronze cert and be a coach. Does that mean they know what they're doing? No. Even with kids. There are SEVERAL bronze certified guys trying to teach kids here and they are actively taking them backwards. A lot of guys will take the test, put down the answers asked for, even if they disagree, and then go back to teaching the way they want to teach, only now they're 'certified.'
Another problem is there just isn't a "unified approach." People learn things different ways. You can't teach one person the same way you teach another person. Just because you know a lot of techniques and methods and drills doesn't mean you know how to COACH. The certification is a small part of the process. A lot of people also think it isn't worth the price they're asking. Also a lot of politics involved in getting the Gold, it's more of a popularity contest.
Nobody ever said you couldn't teach bowling. There aren't a certain set of credentials required, BUT given people's vast collective experience with guys who have bronze certs, just that alone is certainly not going to impress or convince anyone. You might as well say you work in a pro shop, it's about the same thing. Just because you work in a pro shop and can put holes in a ball doesn't mean you have a clue about being an operator . .
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If you're talking basics and getting kids off on the right foot, that's waaay different than being a coach.
So exactly what is this person if not a coach?
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Lol a coach . . but when someone says coach, at least the first definition that comes to my mind isn't "helping kids learn the basics." The word has a pretty broad definition, I realize that, but if someone said pro shop operator, I wouldn't imagine a guy in the back who just does the ordering and manages inventory . .
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Another problem is there just isn't a "unified approach." People learn things different ways.
Of course people learn things different ways! The unified approach is making sure to cover the Fundamentals. Quit going into the specifics of every individual.
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Well then of course you'd make sure someone doesn't screw up a knee or a back or an elbow . .
A coach kind of has to go into the specifics of each individual, and that's the point I'm getting at. There are too many guys waving their bronze certification around trying to smash everybody they coach into the same mold. "Gotta do it exactly like this, like this book says, and like so and so 20 years ago said." I'm not saying YOU do that, I'm just explaining why by and large certifications aren't held in the highest regard. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with getting them, but if you say you have USBC coaching certifications, you're going to get mixed responses. You wondered why people here were so down on them and so negative, just explaining. But like I said earlier, you've got a lot of good ol boys getting their certs, completely ignoring what they're taught in favor of what they already think or believe just so they can puff their chests out more and shut down people who challenge them on anything. If you go onto silver or gold, that's a different story, but I'd at least say don't stop at the bronze if you're going to do it.
Another problem is there just isn't a "unified approach." People learn things different ways.
Of course people learn things different ways! The unified approach is making sure to cover the Fundamentals. Quit going into the specifics of every individual.
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Okay. Gizmo. I get it. As I stated earlier, I agree with you, not everyone coming out of these classes are coaching material. And I will add based on your last example: Anyone using their certification to puff their chest and argue is not someone thinking in the best interest of this Sport. They are thinking in the best interest of themselves.
A good coach listens first. You have to be open minded.
Thanks for encouragement. I plan to increase my skills and abilities. I not sure I am ready to go beyond Bronze Level in the immediate future. I kind of like getting my head wrapped around what I just learned in a course, then applying it in the real world for a while. I got a long way to go.
It's great we can argue and keep this topic from going down hill.
Be ready, I going to have some layout questions in the future.
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Yeap. Sounds like you got the right idea, now it's just a ton of learning and listening . . it's a fun process that never really stops.
Okay. Gizmo. I get it. As I stated earlier, I agree with you, not everyone coming out of these classes are coaching material. And I will add based on your last example: Anyone using their certification to puff their chest and argue is not someone thinking in the best interest of this Sport. They are thinking in the best interest of themselves.
A good coach listens first. You have to be open minded.
Thanks for encouragement. I plan to increase my skills and abilities. I not sure I am ready to go beyond Bronze Level in the immediate future. I kind of like getting my head wrapped around what I just learned in a course, then applying it in the real world for a while. I got a long way to go.
It's great we can argue and keep this topic from going down hill.
Be ready, I going to have some layout questions in the future.