Author Topic: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too) (Read 11133 times)

xrayjay · « **on:** May 27, 2014, 11:44:00 AM »

Do certified coaches get irked by non certified Joe coaching others at the center?

I'm not going to lie, though I am not a cert coach, I think I know a little more than these paper coaches. Not saying all are not up to par, I'm just stating my opinion and many will agree with me. There are many of you who are better coaches than some of these cert ones.

I asked this question because one day several years ago, I was working with a coach and that coach asked me who have I seen in the past. Well, I mentioned some names and that coach was a little irked. Also, there's a local cert coach in one of the bowling centers I go to to help some bowlers. Well, that coach sends this vibe towards me like I was invading his property. In fact, two or three bowlers have seen this coach and sought me after seeing him. I understand he needs to make money, but these bowlers call me and I meet them where they want to. Even if it's at his house to bowl.

Figjam:
I've learned from some of the great coaches, some are HOF/legends in the sport, and some "paperless" coaches who just have the eye for the game - also famus. (thanks to all of them) I used my experience from working with these coaches to help those who asked me for help - for free of course, they donate whatever, like a NIB. (thanks again WHO) I may not have reached my goal of 215-225 ave, but I'm happy for those that I've helped did so. They started at 190'ish and now are 215 to 224 average. Also, I get a lot of joy from newbies who start at 160 and finish the season 10 to 20 sticks more. I asked not to get paid, because many have helped me over the years and it's my little way of giving back. (I have coaching/teaching experience from other sports)

Gizmo823 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 28, 2014, 08:42:17 AM »

A little rabbit trail here, but one of the bigger problems I see with coaching in general right now is OVER coaching. I see SO many kids at the high school and college level that have gotten so dependent on coaches that if their coach isn't in their back pocket, they're worthless. They will throw a shot, and instead of thinking it through themselves, they instantly look back at their coach for a response or direction.

I'm a big concept guy. If I can get a concept across and get the wheels turning, most of the time they will keep turning. A lot of coaches will just polish and oil the wheels, but never get them moving.

mrfrostee · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2014, 10:06:06 AM »

I have a level I certification, which in the big scheme of things is not much. I got mine do to the fact that I have kids in a youth league and one of the coaches overheard me helping one of my chidren and asked if I would be willing to help other kids in the league. The only requirement was to get my level I and have a back ground check done.

To answer the posted question, it does not bother me if non-certified "Joe bowler" is coaching someone at the center. I figure it as helping to grow the sport.

I agree with Gizmo in that when I am helping the kids in the youth league, I want them to think about what is going on and what they need to do. It is easy to say stand here and throw it there, or your topping the ball or whatever the case may be. I usually ask questions such as where are you satnding? What mark are you trying to hit? What did your ball do? What do you think you need to do? Of course this is not all inclusive of what is going on, but I figure if I can "coach" myself out of a job and they are thinking and making adjustments then I am on the right track.

trash heap · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2014, 03:35:54 PM »

What is the criteria for someone to claim the honorary title of "Bowling Coach".

Based on this post the USBC doesn't have it right.

I understand what is trying to be stated here. Some coming out of those certification classes should not be coaching. But is it everyone?

Where is the disconnect? What the are these courses doing wrong?

JustRico · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2014, 03:37:01 PM »

There is a huge difference between an instructor, coach & teacher...

xrayjay · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2014, 03:56:14 PM »

Quote from: JustRico on May 28, 2014, 03:37:01 PM

There is a huge difference between an instructor, coach & teacher...

Instructor specializes on something.
Coach develops and trains
Teacher teaches function and educates

I'm going by our karate lineage from grandmaster, sensei, senpai, and kohai...

JustRico · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2014, 04:00:30 PM »

Great definition

Bigmike · « **Reply #22 on:** May 28, 2014, 04:34:05 PM »

charlest that is what we did on Sunday morning in the Bronze training. We had a group to work with. The toughest one for me was the older guy who muscled everything in his swing. He just was not going to even try to free his swing up.

The sad thing was the pro shop guy back there telling one guy that don't worry, we will get you guys back together after they finish screwing you up. Thanks for the support back there Mr. Professional! LOL

Quote from: charlest on May 27, 2014, 08:33:05 PM

Quote from: JustRico on May 27, 2014, 07:17:02 PM
I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified

Ah, the truth is indeed a bitter pill to swallow.
Rico, you gave them too much to swallow.

I wonder, (I don't know) if, as part of bronze and silver (and whatever level) coaching certificate testing, coaches are "given" 3 or 5 people/kids/adults to coach and the testing results see what was done for these people??
Did the coach help them?
How did the coach help them?

OR

is the certification just classes to see what the coach has learned?

charlest · « **Reply #23 on:** May 28, 2014, 07:14:10 PM »

Quote from: Bigmike on May 28, 2014, 04:34:05 PM

charlest that is what we did on Sunday morning in the Bronze training. We had a group to work with. The toughest one for me was the older guy who muscled everything in his swing. He just was not going to even try to free his swing up.

The sad thing was the pro shop guy back there telling one guy that don't worry, we will get you guys back together after they finish screwing you up. Thanks for the support back there Mr. Professional! LOL

Quote from: charlest on May 27, 2014, 08:33:05 PM
Quote from: JustRico on May 27, 2014, 07:17:02 PM
I got in trouble a few yrs back, having a 'discussion' with a bronze level individual stating in my opinion that every bronze level coach I encountered should be taking lessons not giving them (:
And I was also told I'm certifiable but didn't need to be certified

Ah, the truth is indeed a bitter pill to swallow.
Rico, you gave them too much to swallow.

I wonder, (I don't know) if, as part of bronze and silver (and whatever level) coaching certificate testing, coaches are "given" 3 or 5 people/kids/adults to coach and the testing results see what was done for these people??
Did the coach help them?
How did the coach help them?

OR

is the certification just classes to see what the coach has learned?

Mike,

Then that is the important factor that most people don't see, in the certification process. If they're making you "do" real coaching and testing your results, that is a very important part of the process. It's similar to what is termed "Student teaching", when people are trained to be teachers in college. My wife, way back in the 60s, had to do many, many hours of student teaching to learn how to deal with real students in real environments. She put in maybe 2 full years of actual teaching,(between her Bachelor's degree and her Master's degree) evaluated constantly by her own teacher before she was granted a teacher's license when she graduated.

If they do this for bronze and silver level coaches, these people SHOULD, IN THEORY, be fully able to coach. Coaching is non-trivial and involves serious application of psychology and the study of people and their behavior.

CPA · « **Reply #24 on:** May 28, 2014, 07:39:52 PM »

I don't believe you need a certification to be a good coach. I know silver level coaches I wouldn't use for coaching and others without a certification that I would use for coaching.

I have the silver certification. The training helped me develop my coach's eye and explain various concepts. In both the bronze class and silver class we worked with individual bowlers. During the silver class two students worked with each bowler. The bowlers were volunteers that bowled at the center that hosted the class. We met with the bowler, asked them various questions, watched them bowl and then prepared an analysis. We met witht the class insutructer (Rod Ross) and discussed our findings and recommendations. He provided feedback on our analysis. We then met with the bowler.

Eddie M · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2014, 07:56:52 AM »

I've been the unofficial coach among my group of friends for the better part of 20 years. I've absolutely had a few certified coaches get upset with me. I recently had a coach tell me I was flat out wrong when explaining different spare shooting techniques. He insisted there was only one correct way to convert the 3-6-10 (strike ball and hook into it). He told me "no real coach would ever teach you to shoot that spare straight", and "shooting it with plastic will chop more often". I personally convert everything (that isn't double wood) with plastic, but I have no problem showing someone how to shoot spares however they are most comfortable doing it. Some people are more comfortable with a simple 3-6-9 system, others prefer using a pivot point, etc.

I would love to get certified, if for no other reason than so I don't have to listen to other coaches explain how their piece of paper outweighs my 30+ years of experience.

On a different note. My town has a new bowling alley going up over the summer, and now instead of the nearest centers being 25 miles away, this one will be about a mile away. We have no coaches certified within 20 miles according to the USBC website. I think it would be cool to get certified and maybe get a proper Youth league going when the new center opens. A good friend of mine who also bowls, has 2 kids getting close to High School, so maybe if we both get certified, and set a goal of getting a bowling team into the high school?

dmonroe814 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 29, 2014, 12:38:49 PM »

I have been coaching for a long time, and have recently gotten my certification as a Bronze level coach. I got my certification to lose the stigma of "you are not a certified coach". By getting my certification, it opens up opportunities to coach professionally and not just as a good bowler trying to help friends and family. There are a lot of certified coaches that do not know all of the ins and outs of coaching. I recommend to the good coaches out there to get their credentials and become certified so you can tell the less experienced certified coaches to go jump in the lake.

trash heap · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2014, 02:05:19 PM »

Your statements may be true about the individuals you all have mentioned in your replies, but I guarantee there are excellent coaches out there who are certified.

Don't label the courses the USBC is providing as worthless and a waste of time. USBC is trying to provide solid material and hands on training to develop coaches. This sport needs them desperately. We get it not everyone coming out of these courses are true coaches, but you get that every where.

Crash7189 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 29, 2014, 04:57:20 PM »

This is a topic that can be debated forever. I am a Sliver level coach. I have enough intelligence to know when I finished both the Bronze and Sliver cert's I needed experience & More training to be a good coach.

Over the many years of bowling, I have gone to some top level coaches for my game. Fred Borden, Ron Hatfield, Jeri Edwards, Andy Parker, Joe solowinski, & Bill Spigner. Every single one of them has different methods to coach. So I picked who I liked and made it simple for me to learn. The best thing I ever heard is from Fred Borden is ( what is the 1st rule of bowling) answer (there are no rules). so one size does not fit all!! I have taken things I like from each one to improve my bowling and my coaching. I went to all of these coaches to learn how they coach and what I can learn from them. My coaching has been mentored by Fred Borden, Andy Parker, & Ron Hatfield. I have worked with all 3 on my coaching and they are the best in the world. So all of you non-certified coaches who think you are good there are Reasons you need to get certified and work with a experienced coach. you & I can't and will not know everything about bowling on our own or from any class room teachings. We need to work long and hard to became as good as the above coaches. Right now I work & run clinics with Ron Hatfield, I hope some day to be half a good as Ron. So for you Certified and Non certified We can always get better we must work it like it is our job & passion. The only thing Ron does is coach that is why is the fastest to get to Gold and Is at the Top of his game. I would say yes the truly Elite coach's should be upset by the non-certified. It takes a lot of time, Money and hard work to become a Gold Coach. Also would you ask this same question about a Teaching Golf Pro?

Just .02

milorafferty · « **Reply #29 on:** May 29, 2014, 05:18:11 PM »

Quote from: Crash7189 on May 29, 2014, 04:57:20 PM

This is a topic that can be debated forever. I am a Sliver level coach. I have enough intelligence to know when I finished both the Bronze and Sliver cert's I needed experience & More training to be a good coach.

Over the many years of bowling, I have gone to some top level coaches for my game. Fred Borden, Ron Hatfield, Jeri Edwards, Andy Parker, Joe solowinski, & Bill Spigner. Every single one of them has different methods to coach. So I picked who I liked and made it simple for me to learn. The best thing I ever heard is from Fred Borden is ( what is the 1st rule of bowling) answer (there are no rules). so one size does not fit all!! I have taken things I like from each one to improve my bowling and my coaching. I went to all of these coaches to learn how they coach and what I can learn from them. My coaching has been mentored by Fred Borden, Andy Parker, & Ron Hatfield. I have worked with all 3 on my coaching and they are the best in the world. So all of you non-certified coaches who think you are good there are Reasons you need to get certified and work with a experienced coach. you & I can't and will not know everything about bowling on our own or from any class room teachings. We need to work long and hard to became as good as the above coaches. Right now I work & run clinics with Ron Hatfield, I hope some day to be half a good as Ron. So for you Certified and Non certified We can always get better we must work it like it is our job & passion. The only thing Ron does is coach that is why is the fastest to get to Gold and Is at the Top of his game. I would say yes the truly Elite coach's should be upset by the non-certified. It takes a lot of time, Money and hard work to become a Gold Coach. Also would you ask this same question about a Teaching Golf Pro?

Just .02

Personally, I think Andy Parker is a clown. I worked with him some at a BTM Super School and considered it a waste of time.

BobOhio · « **Reply #30 on:** May 29, 2014, 05:55:08 PM »

What a closed minded individual you must be, Andy is in the Top50 coaches in the USA. What a shame you didn't take advantage of that golden opportunity.

Author Topic: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too) (Read 11133 times)

xrayjay

do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

Gizmo823

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

mrfrostee

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

trash heap

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

JustRico

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

xrayjay

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

JustRico

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

Bigmike

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

charlest

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

CPA

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

Eddie M

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

dmonroe814

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

trash heap

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

Crash7189

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

milorafferty

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)

BobOhio

Re: do some cert. coaches get offended? (a little figjam too)