What a closed minded individual you must be, Andy is in the Top50 coaches in the USA. What a shame you didn't take advantage of that golden opportunity.

Yea, closed minded. I've had lessons from Rod and Teresa Ross, Rod Clifton, Bill Hall, Mike Jasnau, John Jowdy etc. I also went to a Hank Haney golf camp, so I know what a good coach should be like in that type of environment. The attendees of the school paid a lot of money for the lessons, not to mention travel and room expense.


Maybe 'ol Andy was having a bad week, but it was still a waste of time when he was supposed to be working with us. Maybe Andy needs to spend less time on the phone, less time telling us how great he would have been if not for an injury and more time actually teaching.

Here is what I call being a clown, being LATE for the coaching session, all three days. Spending as much time on the phone as working with the students, giving me such priceless information as "using alcohol to clean your ball will cause the material to crystallize". Oh yea, real golden opportunity missed there. Glad I paid money for it.

The top 50 coaches ranking means nothing. I know one guy locally who was and maybe still is on the list for several years and never gave a lesson during that time.

Having said all that, to be fair, he seemed to be a nice guy. But I didn't pay for nice.

Since your BobOhio, I assume you must know Andy Parker personally and feel the need to stick up for him. If that's the case, tell him I thought he sucked. 

Just An FYI to Milo. I worked with some other coaches I did not like. I will not name them because it would not be fair to them.   Some are real well know, I will keep my opinion to myself. Others in the class loved them and thought they helped them. So who am I to say I am correct and they are bad coaches.  We will never please 100% of the bowling population.  But as coaches we want to do our best to make sure everyone gets what they came to us for, to be better bowlers and have fun doing it.  1st I  was never scared to tell any of the coaches I was not satisfied and need more info or help.  They thanked me for being honest. I know Bobohio from many clinics I traveled to in Ohio and he came to my area. He is a good guy. Calling Andy a clown just shows who you really are. For what ever reason you did not like what he was doing you should have told him. I am the most Black & White, blunt, tell it like is person you will ever meet.  No reason to be rude on a forum where they can't defend themselves or explain the situation.  Unless you have the balls to say it to that persons face  don't use a forum to bad mouth someone.  I met Andy through Fred & Ron I don't think either man would work with a Clown. I think Andy is a great coach, good family man and a stand up guy.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion that is what makes the USA great.  This is mine like or hate, it's your choice. I don't care either way

You All have a great day

Never heard of Andy Parker and don't know the situation, but like anyone would tell a coach they didn't like them or think they were doing it right . . like that would be productive at all?  Chest would puff up, you'd get the run down of all their accomplishments and accolades, and then they'd storm off and go run you down to everybody else they could find. 

The issue is that coaching isn't something you go get a certification for and then you can coach.  I can go grab anybody out of a league who can go through and get their Bronze certification and still not know a thing.  Lots of people out there who can answer questions right on a test, but actual coaching is a different story.  We had a local certified coach that "coaches" the youth on Saturday mornings telling a bunch of high school standouts moving up to adult leagues that they shouldn't be bowling the local scratch league because it would be "over their heads."  Might as well tell graduates not to go to college . .

Study the game as much as you can.  Some people "get it", most don't.  Just like good bowlers "get it" and other guys that have better physical games don't and never beat the the guys that do.  Some people have the eye to coach, most don't.  The biggest part that people don't understand is the cause/effect.  It's not as simple as saying "you're doing this wrong, do this instead."  You have to be able to identify what a person is doing and correct what is causing it to happen.

I guess what everyone is saying is that it's not like getting the certifications is a bad thing, it just doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.  And being that so many guys have certifications and still don't have much of a clue, that reduces the meaningfulness of the certification.  Not saying there's not good information there, but there are tons of people out there who are good at retaining information, but don't have a clue how to apply it. 

How to become a coach?  That's hard to say because it happens different for everyone.  Just like saying how do you become a mentor or something, you just find you have an aptitude for it and learn.  I'd be willing to guess that the good coaches out there didn't just decide they were going to be a coach and then took the appropriate steps to become one.  They just naturally found out they were good at it and kind of fell into it. 

Quote from: Gizmo823 on May 30, 2014, 08:53:07 AM

The issue is that coaching isn't something you go get a certification for and then you can coach.  I can go grab anybody out of a league who can go through and get their Bronze certification and still not know a thing.  Lots of people out there who can answer questions right on a test, but actual coaching is a different story.  We had a local certified coach that "coaches" the youth on Saturday mornings telling a bunch of high school standouts moving up to adult leagues that they shouldn't be bowling the local scratch league because it would be "over their heads."  Might as well tell graduates not to go to college . .

So how does someone become a coach?

What does a person do when there is noone like a Ric Hamlin or Ron Clifton in the area to teach them? 

Where does someone get the information to become a coach without going through some kind of course or certification process?

I'd be willing to guess that the good coaches out there didn't just decide they were going to be a coach and then took the appropriate steps to become one.  They just naturally found out they were good at it and kind of fell into it. 

I guess this is where we disagree. I can see someone making a choice to becoming a coach and find out they are really good at it. You don't know until you try. I don't think you just fall into it. You need to have a passion for it and want to do it.

The last comment is perhaps the truest . .  One of my favorite sayings that I created/adopted at the beginning of leagues last year is that I have to "make what is important to my customer/student important to me."  Obviously you want to make your customer or student happy.  But not everyone wants to be a pro, not everyone wants to average 220.  Sometimes if you don't make their desires important to you, you don't quite give them 100%.  A lot of coaches don't like to hear that people don't want to be "the best they can be."  I've always wanted to give customers and students the best I can give them, or do what's best for them.  But I realized that my definition of that and their definition could be two totally different things. 

Another thing that is big is working with what the person has to offer, like you said below.  Some coaches try to take people and make them textbook.  The majority of people aren't textbook.  You may do irreversible damage to someone's game if you change something that maybe isn't textbook, but something unique about their game that isn't necessarily hurting them.  That requires having a good eye.  Something may be odd or quirky, but if it's consistent, you just work to make it better.  Yeah, some things might have to be changed if they're causing a problem, but more often than not you can clean up someone's existing game without having to change much. 

Sometimes you don't even need to do much with form, sometimes it's mental.  There's a kid here in town who has a great physical game, but he already overthinks it, so the LAST thing I'd want to do is make a comment about his physical game before his mental game is ready to handle it.  I just talk to him about relaxing and getting more comfortable, then when he is, THEN we can make a few adjustments.  And sometimes getting the mental game fixed automatically sorts out some physical game kinks, because mental issues can cause physical issues.  Gotta make sure you fix the cause and not the symptom.

It's definitely complicated though. 

Here is why I could never be a coach.

I have been at the ITRC in Arlington practicing for the open and the coaches there have to coach all types.  They are trying to help the 120 bowler become a 150 bowler, as well as a 210 bowler become a 220 bowler.

That is 2 totally different areas of coaching.

We as experienced bowlers could all probably offer some advice to the 120 average bowler to assist them on their way to 150.

But how many of us seriously could see that one little flaw in a 210 bowler to make them a 220 bowler?

It all depends on what expectations you have.  If you are a 175-190 average bowler and expect after 1 coaching session to be ready for the PBA tour, you might want to re-assess yourself.

I watched a Mike J session at Reno with one of my 220 average teammates last year.  He doesn't try to re-make your game.  He helps you excel at what you do well already while giving you ideas to improve upon.

Maybe he'll catch that you are off balance at the line because your back swing is not straight back.  He'll provide you a drill to work on to straighten your back swing which should improve your balance which should improve your shot making.

Most good coaches will give you drills or ways to improve your game based on what you want to do, not on what they believe is the right way to bowl.

Obviously . .

But there are some things you can't over look. You definitely don't want someone screwing up their knee, wrist, elbow, or shoulder.