BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Game In a BoxLC on June 15, 2003, 10:15:04 AM
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A friend of mine told me he may not bowl in any leagues next season at all. He is probably the best and most dominant/intimidating player in the area. He said he is sick of getting beat by league yokels who take his money and that bowling on league walls ruin his game and make him more prone to make bad shots or get used to having area.
He makes a very valid point as well. Why should he spend 20 dollars a week just for league fee, plus brackets/eliminators/jackpot which is another 30-40 to get beat by inferior house bowlers on a wall. Because of the wall he doesn't have the area and carry of most of the league yokels, meaning more times than not he isn't going to make jack squat in brackets and league fees.
Take into account this kid isnt a local yokel, he at one time was rated one of the best youth bowlers in the nation, and is probably the most dominant bowler in the area, he hits the ball harder than almost anyone i've ever seen and can split half boards at his breakpoint. He had a 215 average on a sport shot, this kid is just a machine.
He told me he is going to save his money and load up on more brackets in the tournaments he bowls in where the playing field is a bit more equal and he can be rewarded for making quality shots and having a damn solid game.
I started thinking about it, and he is right, why should we spend this money to bowl, especially for scratch bowlers, i personally am sick of getting my head handed to me by a house yokels who cant hold my jock strap on a hard condition. We aren't going to make much back, i think i got 200 from my league i payed 18 dollars a week for and we finished second. I didn't make too much in brackets and normally put 30-35 into them. I also carried a 220 average and i would regularly shoot 250-270 games and lose. Whereas in a tournament which is more demanding this doesn't happen as much.
With one of the top bowlers in the area stopping league bowling, i'm thinking about it, i'm sure there are many scratch bowlers saying the same thing. The conditions are driving away the areas best because they dont like donating to house yokels. I mean whats next?
I just wanted your thoughts and comments on this, i just thought it was interesting and perplexing, he makes a very good point, and if this new league coming out here by Fred Borden sucks i may go the way he does and just bowl in tournaments. I mean for 10 bucks i can get way more out of a practice session for tournaments.
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am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
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I think you hit on a good point. I've noticed the same thing, even though it's just in youth leagues. There's this one kid that has a shot that's perfectly tailored to this one house we bowl at. He can't bowl anywhere else, but he'll put up some huge numbers at this house. He shot 1050 for four earlier this year out there, but the awesome thing is that when we go to tournaments where they put out the sport shot, or even just something that isn't a wall, he never makes the cut, and I always do. It got irritating week after week to get beat by this reject, so I essentially "quit" to move to higher competition, which is just the adults for right now. But I can definitely see your point. All scratch bowlers want is fair competition, and when they have wannabe's fluffing their way to victory on the great wall of China thinking they can call themselves scratch bowlers, it gets really irritating when the best can hit the same board at the breakpoint everytime, and still get beat by a guy that hits 12 different boards 12 different times.
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I know Kung Fu!
I am the one, the one that will bring balance. All the pins shall be destroyed!
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i don't mind losing, i said a wall is less forgiving for me than a sport condition, i have more area on it at my breakpoint by far. I didn't say i want them to quit i just wish there were more classic leagues or high rollers leagues. I practice more than most people, in the winter 30 games a week on average practicing. How is it fair when i
- Turn a ball harder than a guy
- more consistant in form, leverage, release position and speed
- more accurate at the arrows and breakpoint
and i lose to this guy because he has a ball and a wall. I lost yes, but the best bowler didn't win. I don't mind losing, when a bowler bowls better than me or outperforms me i say hey man, good job.
Because of the dry backends and toasted outsides, a person with a high rev rate uses up energy quicker because as soon as the ball hits the lane it starts using energy, whereas an average joe league bowler who has a lower roll with less rev rate does not use up energy as quickly. We because of the dry have to migrate inside and play radical angles to rebound off the dry, meaning we are using up much more energy and we lose carry.
But if i or someone like me is put on a sport shot, suddenly our carry is up, we have alittle mistake area at the break point because we have a hand. All i wish is there were more leagues which cater to higher average bowlers or classic bowlers, with a demanding and fair shot but not impossible. I am not saying a sport shot or anything of the type, but a flatter pattern which requires you to be
A-Relatively accurate
B-Consistant
C-If you hit the ball you have more area
D-When you throw a good shot you get rewarded
I understand the only thing keeping bowlers bowling is the wall anymore, and the high honor scores they can put up, thats fine. But we need to do something if the cream of the crop is quitting slowly because it levels the playing field too much. I work very hard to be good at bowling, i invest alot of time, why is it fair that my hard work means nothing when a guy goes and buys the newest hook monster, hits anywere between 10-18 and hammers the pocket all night.
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am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
Edited on 6/16/2003 1:56 AM
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i dont mind losing to people without a hand, if they are relatively accurate. I know of few guys i would hate seeing in match play who dont turn the ball at all, but they are damn consistant and will split boards. I do have hand yes, but i also can stroke a ball, or kill a ball, i can throw it 25-28 mph or slow it down, i am very versatile, but even when i do these things i still hit the ball very hard with a high track. I know a few guys you would see bowl and say eh hes ok after you see him throw one shot. But if you watch him throw 12 shots you will say god hes frickin good because every shot is identical.
Like i said before i work very hard to be good at bowling, i invest alot of time, money, and effort, bowling isn't cheap, practice isn't cheap. I and most others consider myself to be very adapt at it. I'm not a single game guy who just tries to rip the cover off the ball and send it out somewhere, i can do many things as i've said. I've even tried taking my hand out of the ball and playing the wall much like fluffers, but even when i do that i still hit the ball harder than most league bowlers. Your right the best bowler doesn't always win, and styles vary. But i see this in almost every house i go into anymore where people with game struggle and people without it accell and are rewarded.
Its quite a pickle ABC is in. Bowlers like me and i know alot others who are scratch or tournament bowlers and they are fed up with the conditions, but if ABC hardens them then we lose many league bowlers. So they have to pick between which group to piss off and they chose the scratch bowlers because not as many would quit because we have invested so much money in equipment, practice, tournaments, etc.
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am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
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A sport condition really separates the good and bad bowlers. The only thing a wall shot does is reduce it to a carry contest. If they bowled a good game, there's nothing wrong with that, and sure I'll congratulate them, but if I leave a couple 8's and a 9 on absoultely beautiful shots, I'm gonna complain if I lose to a guy that has 2 or 3 brooklyns and a bunch of mixers in the game. You also just have to respect good bowlers on walls shots as well. When you get so good, I think you earn the breaks that you get. You still don't like seeing them if you're bowling against them for the money, but you also have to realize that good shots and a little luck is what it takes to win, and you can't begrudge them a trip 4 or two if you're cutting 10's in half.
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I know Kung Fu!
I am the one, the one that will bring balance. All the pins shall be destroyed!
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You're friend sounds like a joke. Whining because someone else beating him and blaming everything but himself.
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He makes a very valid point as well. Why should he spend 20 dollars a week just for league fee, plus brackets/eliminators/jackpot which is another 30-40 to get beat by inferior house bowlers on a wall. Because of the wall he doesn't have the area and carry of most of the league yokels, meaning more times than not he isn't going to make jack squat in brackets and league fees.
Tell him not to get into jackpots unless he is willing to lose what he bets. If it was a sure thing, it wouldn't be gambling. He must not have the correct combination of speed, revs, and accuracy or he would score better. A good portion of scoring is matching up.
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He is probably the best and most dominant/intimidating player in the area. He said he is sick of getting beat by league yokels who take his money
I guess they're not very intimidated, or else they wouldn't beat him.
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Take into account this kid isnt a local yokel, he at one time was rated one of the best youth bowlers in the nation, and is probably the most dominant bowler in the area, he hits the ball harder than almost anyone i've ever seen and can split half boards at his breakpoint. He had a 215 average on a sport shot, this kid is just a machine
Not all youth's with potential pan out. Look how many college studs in all sports never make a difference in the majors. Hitting the ball harder? Who cares? It's about matching your stats with what's needed. Split half boards at the breakpoint. Give me a friggin break. I'm sure he's good, but no reason to exaggerate. There are some very scoreable sport shots. 215 alone doesn't mean everything.
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I just wanted your thoughts and comments on this, i just thought it was interesting and perplexing, he makes a very good point, and if this new league coming out here by Fred Borden sucks i may go the way he does and just bowl in tournaments.
You probably want to bowl at least one league. Some tournaments may not let you bowl, even scratch, without a book average.
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My boat doesn't have a name, but the anchor does: Buzzsaw
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Okay, maybe it's just a girl/guy thing but why would you spend $30+ on brackets when all you do is lose it? I carry one of the higher averages on my summer league. Each week, if I play one of the side brackets, I might win a few bucks. However, the 60+ handicap pin old ladies are raking in the money. Fair, no way. These people are playing dominos with those pins. Do I know this before I get in a bracket. You betcha.
As for not bowling league because of handicap bowlers getting the win. Oh please. As it was said, it just forces you to be on your game, make adjustments, do what you need to do to win. So you've got awesome revs and can cover 20 boards -- who cares if you aren't getting the carry that night. Play for the condition. Be adaptable. I used to play competitive tennis locally. I felt beeter using a baseline game, but of my opponent was dropping shots, I had better rush the net and get my volley on fast. You gotta have and a, b and c games. Now, I don't have that yet for bowling, but I understand the need for one.
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I understand... like I said, I play with people who think bowling is like dominos in slow motion none the less. But leagues are about "volumes" of bowlers, not elite bowlers. We all know that going into it. Can't people just do it because they like the comraderie of the sport and learn real competiton for the tournaments?
I remember when the new "larger head/larger sweet spot" tennis rackets started to make the scene. The number of players who could now return what at one time was a winning shot, jumped drastically. (Top it all off, these rackets were illegal for competitive play so I stilled used the tradtional racket at first.) I always hated playing "lesser" player because my game declined. They hit these crappy slop balls that never bounced right. I could never get a good rhythm going. One of their shots would lop over net and bounce straight up -- no force, no forward momentum. The next would be a high lob to the base line. Great strategy? Not, it was the only shot they could make. They didn't choose to hit the ball this way, they didn't intentionally vary their speed, pacing, position, spin, etc. They just hit the ball the only way they could. Later I learned that while I might not be getting much practice on making and returning clean shots playing these people, I was learning how to read a shot better, increase my reaction time and run, run, run... I got out of it what I could and just learned to have fun being outside playing.
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good points. Again i don't want them to quit, i just wish there would be more scratch or classic leagues which cater to bowlers like me, who want a fair but not too demanding shot which can be attacked from many angles, none of which give a definite advantage. A sport shot does this but it might be too rigid for a classic league. I understand ABC needs these bowlers, i do. I guess im just hoping for the days my father talks about where he would bowl a first shift league, a second shift league, a midnight league, bowl jackpot until 330 or 400, go to breakfast and bowl in a morning league. He still didn't pay as much as i do for one league night doing that. Its a shame the sport has degraded itself so much.
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am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
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If it was just a hooking contest every guy on tour would be no thumb and slow speed.
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.
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Everyone has the same miss room on a house shot so its still equal. The shot is still the same layout for everyone
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First off, dizzle, I think lefty would kill you for thinking he's still in youth leagues, ya got the wrong lefty. Although, for all his references to my inexperience, this post and his arguments sound a lot like something I might say. I have to disagree about all things being equal on a house shot though. I have a ton of trouble at one of my home houses, the pattern is short and dry with a hard wall, but that's only for me it seems. There are fluffers buying Icon 300's that can play 2nd arrow with it, and it'll get to the pocket, and here I am at 4th arrow with a frickin Viper (my Hit, yes, the regular one, not the Big Hit, is too over under) screwing my mechanics up just to get the ball down the lane with some recovery, because the reaction is pretty soft. Ron and Kristi Bahr both recently got Cherry Bombs, and they both play around 3rd arrow with it, I had to launch mine from 5th arrow in (can't move any deeper on the right lane, ball return is in the way) to get it down the lane. There are other people that play 1st arrow with aggressive balls where I can't get a plastic ball to hold from. I think just about anybody has the advantage over me at this house, simply cause my ball starts moving at about 35 feet, and I have too much trouble with the speed I have to throw it. I don't even think I crank it, although some might tend to disagree, but I'm not a no thumber, let's just put it that way. Decent speed, decent revs, I just can't match up there.
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I know Kung Fu!
I am the one, the one that will bring balance. All the pins shall be destroyed!
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I have to agree with some on this board. The best overall bowler should win. BUT, when your opponent gets more pins than you, that means that person is the best bowler for that condition. Certainly you and I and many here know all sorts of ways to play a lane. But many times that doesn't mean much when someone can simply get lined up. Maybe we didn't choose the right way for the condition. Bottom line, if you opponent has more pins than you, that person wins, for the moment that person is better. You get more than you opponent, you win. Find out how to beat him.
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NO matter how much we beat this topic, things won't change. The number of bowlers in ABC has been dwindling exponentially. You have to accept the fact that most nights you might get beat by someone whos only gift is hitting hte ball. I find myself complaining, but once I leave the center, its forgotten. NOthing I can do will cange it, the guy received his reward for being a "wall bowler". If all he wants is to be able to come in bowler a couple of games a week and score, then that is his choice.
One elder gentlemen who used to bowl some Regionals way back in the day, talked to me about the local house which produces an obscene amount of honor scores. He knows his average is inflated beyond all recognition. He is right now in his 60s though, and currently he just bowls a league with his friends/family just to enjoy himself. He just wants to be able to shoots some good scores if eh throws the ball descent and he is satisfied with that.
I, for myself, the last half of a season in one of my leagues decided to put up the ball that allowed me to score the most on that condition, used another ball that forced me to make more precise shots to score because the matchup wan't there. This was my way of practicing, and keeping league bowling into its perspective.
By the way, scratch leagues??? Hmmm, I heard about that, buts its been a year or two since one has been seen in my near area.
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LeftyCrank300, i have a quetion regarding your second post, in it you say that you should have room if you have hand. i just want to say that that is not everyones style. There are many great players out there without a ton of hand and your making it sound like the conditions should favor people with bigger hands. If you start going that route the average joe and even the accurate strokes of the game are going to quit becase they won't be able to create nearly as much room as joe shmo who revs the ball like no other... Just something to think about.
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When all else fails, become a lefty
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I see several things wrong with this picture here. First, if a bowler is THAT good, then they should be killing other bowlers if there is a wall shot up, since the wall gives BOTH bowlers an advantage, and the higher skilled bowler should have a significant accuracy and carry advantage.
As for throwing money away, why would I invest $40 in brackets if I thought that I didn't stand a chance on earning anything back? And, whatever happened to SCRATCH brackets too?.....maybe some of the bowlers with bigger egos would care to enter into the SCRATCH brackets, so that handicap no longer enters the picture. You can run brackets either scratch, handicap, or you can run both types at the same time (if you have enough entries in the scratch division).....this would put the edge back in the "skilled" bowler's corner, and the wannabe is rolling the dice.
What I see here is too many bowlers trying to get rich at league bowling. Considering that most of your weekly fees go towards lineage, you're not gonna get rich bowling leagues. If you have someone running brackets, ask them to run both handicap AND scratch brackets, and the bowlers can choose which division they care to invest their money in. If the wannabes feel lucky, then they too will enter the scratch brackets with the big dogs.....if not, then the wannabes will stay on the porch.
Maybe my area is just a fluke, but I do see SCRATCH tournaments being held on a fairly regular basis around here. Sure, you might have to drive a few hours to get to the house where they have the next one at, but these tournaments do exist, normally with longer game formats or multi-block formats. There's something out there for just about every skill level, if you feel that handicap bowling is crimping your style.
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It is because this league is nothing but a bunch of sandbaggers. Last nite, a 120 average bowler had a 723 series! not one of the other team bowled less than 45 pins above their average! This is happening week after week after week. Then we give them handicap of 50 to 100 pins right off the bat. My team is not slacking, we are very consistent. Leadoff is my wife, 132 average, next is our good friend 110 average, then me 168 average and my brother the anchor man, 191 average. We bowl consistently around our average but keep getting beat by these teams.
Melonhead, I'm sorry to point out that if they're shooting 700's off of 120 averages, and your team is just shooting average, then they are the worst sandbaggers ever! I guarantee a genuine sandbagger would NEVER shoot anything more than he/she needed to squeak out the win and keep their avg. low. (It's a disgusting practice, and IMO all sandbaggers should be hung by their genitals so they cannot further contaminate the gene pool with more liars and cheats).
However, I do sympathize with you somewhat. Seemed like last season everyone we were giving hdcp. to had the night of their season against us. When you looked at the standings though, you realized they couldn't have been bagging on purpose or they'd win a lot more games. Just something you have to take in stride since it's part of the game.
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Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!
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1-because i have a hand i do not think i should have more area than anyone. But when i see a 220 average bowler who has no rev rates, a low side roll or spin, no accuracy, a heavy load particle ball that regularly kicks out 5-7's for him, while i do not have the same type of area, it makes me sick. Maybe i'm not playing the lanes right, perhaps i should go up and just drop the ball behind me, rear up, hit anywere between 2nd and 4th arrow, let the ball hook into the pins. I guess thats what im going to need to do to accell at bowling since as people put it these guys are better than me.
2-I'm not quitting league bowling, i said my friend is considering it because of some of the reasons stated, he feels it just doesn't help him when it comes to tournaments and he can get more out of a practice session for two hours where he pays eight dollars for it and can bowl 10-15 games. He isn't definite about it, i simply posed the question and his reasons why he was considering it.
3-I'm not a whiner, i'm really not, and i don't think i should have ungodly area because i can hit the ball, i can do many things with a bowling ball from stroke it to kill it to hit it. I can play pretty much any part of the lane. I don't bowl to get rich, i bowl because i love bowling, i love competition. I lose alot at it and i don't usually get mad or upset when i do. I know in my heart the people beating me in these leagues can't do crap on a tougher shot which i would still average 180-210 on.
Again i don't want them to quit, or even for ABC t ochange. I guess i bowl in a weird part of the world, every house has a huge wall, and there isn't one league that offers a challenging shot for league play. I just wish there was so we could go there and know i have to bowl well to do well but also my opponent has to do the same thing.
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am i still considered a lefty, i never get to play the left side of the lane
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I can say categorically that league bowling hasn't destroyed my game. That's because I never *had* a game to start with.
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Sometimes it is just a carry contest and you have to just grin and get over it or let it eat you up.
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.
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I think what lefty means is that his shot hits the pocket with a lot more power than the fluffers that don't know what they're doing, and they get the carry. I know how he feels, there's a girl that throws maybe 6 revs, about 15 mph with a 14 lb ball and she carries EVERYTHING, and I mean everything. She kicks mixer 7's, even gets freakin messengers, it's just wrong. And especially when they get a big head, and guys like me and lefty practice all the time working on stuff, and they just show up to league and let the wall carry them to scores. We'd rather bowl on tougher shots, because it raises the level of competition and gives rewards justly. Fluffers aren't going to score on a sport shot, and that's the way it should be. You all should know that no one wants to work hard for money just to see some shmuck fall into a high paying job when he didn't do anything to earn it. That applies to bowling.
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I know Kung Fu!
I am the one, the one that will bring balance. All the pins shall be destroyed!
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A lot of the problem is that what is the definition of power. Everyone has a different concept of power. To me any more power utilitzed that is needed to knock out the 5 is overkill.
Good bowlers match up their speed, turn, axis, and other factors to maximize carry for their roll of the ball.
I know a bowler that to watch him bowl you would think he threw a weak spinner. But his roll was such that it carried very well on virtually any condition. Bowlers that appeared to have much more powerful releases came and went but over a 25 year period virtually no one would beat him, no one. Not Justin Hromek, not Chris Barnes, not Lonnie Waliczek, not Gordon Vadakin, or a host of other college all americans that came thru town. The only bowler I saw that could was Rick Steelsmith before he hurt his shoulder. This bowler has won a PBA national stop as well and would beat you in a carry contest or a grid out. But he simply did not look impressive.
If some beats you week after week then maybe they bowl better than you think and/or you are not as good as you think you are.
Not having seen him bowl (but judging what he has said about his game on this board) but I think a lot of the kids would think Bob Hanson is a fluffer but he could beat virtually anyone on this board especially in a long format.
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We need to remember bowling is a game. Let's have some fun. I enjoy handicap leagues. If you give other bowlers a lot of handicap, it forces you to concentrate on every shot. A few years ago we won our league for ther second year in a row. The next year we suggested the handicap be raised to 100% of 200. Let everybody have a chance. The league grew and it was pretty competitive. We didn't win the league, but had a great time. Our bowling also improved due to the extra concentration that was needed for each game.
Also stop bowling at the easy houses. Find a center that doesn't wall up the lanes.
For the times it is serious and not for fun, bowl in a sport league. I bowled in my first sport league this past year. That was a great experience. In my opinion though, a sport shot does not favor the bowlers who cover a lot of boards. It also doesn't increase your carry. It just seems like it does when you compare the carry of a better bowler to a less accomplished bowler.
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Here I go. If you believe that someone with less skill should not beat you and your buddy, then find something else to do. Welcome to reality!
I guess scoring in bowling needs to change. These rules need to be in place:
1. Hit your mark on your strike ball = STRIKE
2. High Revs = STRIKE, Medium Revs = Keep Score, Low Revs = -4 on Frame
3. Speed: Fast(Above 22MPH)=STRIKE, Medium(15-22)=Keep Score, Slow(Under 15)=-4. Brooklyn's: A score of 0.
5. Carrying the 10 or 7 on weak hits: A score of 0.
6. Not Carrying the 10 or 7. If consider Loud Pocket Hit = STRIKE.
7. Type of ball using (Adding/Subtracting per Frame):
Old Rubber = Keep Score
Plastic = -1
Urethane = -4
Reactive = -6
Particle = -8
8. Amount of Bowling Balls you bring. Subtract from Total Score.
1 = Keep Original Score
2 = -20
3 = -50
4 = -80
Above 4 = -300
9. Bowl on Sport League = Add 20 to total score.
10. Bowl on Wall Shot = Subtract 60 from total score.
11. Use a wrist support = Subtract 100 from total score.
Please feel free to add or change any these.
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Bob, she averages anywhere from 190-210 depending on how easy of a wall it is. I love seeing her leave the 8-10's though, she's stuck up and prissy. Her and her boyfriend prebowled over half the season (70-some out of 120-some games), and seeing as how the practice conditions are too easy for words, they averaged high and then had the nerve to tell anybody that got upset about it that we were just jealous of their averages. An example of the typical house bowler at its best.
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I know Kung Fu!
I am the one, the one that will bring balance. All the pins shall be destroyed!