Author Topic: Dumb Bagger (Read 2414 times)

trash heap · « **on:** September 28, 2009, 02:31:04 AM »

Just had this happen over the weekend. I was subbing for a friend in league. The other team had a sub too. Apparently this guy can average over 200 (THS). Well he starts off having a good first game (Just over 200). Second game isn't as good.

Third game....is when it starts. The guy on my team gets on a streak. I think he went to 7 strikes in a row. The rest of our team is doing okay and we quite a large lead in this game. The sub on the other team doesn't get off to a good start. Well since its his first night and he sees he has no chance of helping his team for the third game; we heard him talking to the other team. He basically told him he was going throw his last game to see if they could win the first game to give him more handicap.

We were quite shocked that we heard it. The moron didn't look at the scores very well, because the first game we beat them by over 100. But still for someone to openly admit to throwing a bad game for the sake of a few pins in handicap is ridiculous.

Our team captain went to a league officer and it was decided to just let it go. The points did not change because of his stupidity. Dumb bagger!!

trash heap · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2009, 03:32:36 PM »

quote:
Swift kick in the nuts for him??

I wonder if the USBC would go for this sort of punishment? I think it would be alot more effective than maybe just kicking them out.

hammermark · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2009, 04:35:52 PM »

I was an eyewitness to this clown and his behaviour. Its not the fact that the guy did it that bothers me because idiots also inhabit and share the planet. To me it is a disgrace and an insult to the sport and to all bowlers aside from it being a blatant disrespect to the game. I don't get when people will trade mediocrity in place of always trying your best at whatever you do no matter what the situation. Can you imagine someone like Vince Lombardi saying to his players. All right men, lets go out there and be mediocre and if we are getting our heads handed to us, well then, lets just throw in the towel, sink the ship, burn the fort and any other cliche you want apply (insert cliche here). And to do it openly and express it that way, I mean why even bowl just take a card and a stamp and mail in whatever score you want, cuts down on the price of equipment. Stamps are cheaper than bowling balls, at least for now anyways. My 2 cents worth, you can have the soapbox back Mike.

HM

On Further Review · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2009, 07:34:44 PM »

Did the substitute just TALK about bowling bad, perhaps for a psychological advantage, or did he actually roll bad and seem to be doing so deliberately? There's a big difference.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2009, 08:14:32 AM »

quote:
I was an eyewitness to this clown and his behaviour. Its not the fact that the guy did it that bothers me because idiots also inhabit and share the planet. To me it is a disgrace and an insult to the sport and to all bowlers aside from it being a blatant disrespect to the game. I don't get when people will trade mediocrity in place of always trying your best at whatever you do no matter what the situation. Can you imagine someone like Vince Lombardi saying to his players. All right men, lets go out there and be mediocre and if we are getting our heads handed to us, well then, lets just throw in the towel, sink the ship, burn the fort and any other cliche you want apply (insert cliche here). And to do it openly and express it that way, I mean why even bowl just take a card and a stamp and mail in whatever score you want, cuts down on the price of equipment. Stamps are cheaper than bowling balls, at least for now anyways. My 2 cents worth, you can have the soapbox back Mike.

HM

I understand your frustration, but I think the football analogy is not accurate. Pro teams do it all the time when they lock themselves into the playoffs early, then play the 2nd and 3rd stringers to "rest" their A squad in any games left before the playoffs begin. Would that be "bagging"? It definitely isn't trying your best no matter what... Why bother showing up, just give the W and forfeit those games and rest the entire team.
--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

Krakken · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2009, 09:20:59 AM »

quote:
quote:
I was an eyewitness to this clown and his behaviour. Its not the fact that the guy did it that bothers me because idiots also inhabit and share the planet. To me it is a disgrace and an insult to the sport and to all bowlers aside from it being a blatant disrespect to the game. I don't get when people will trade mediocrity in place of always trying your best at whatever you do no matter what the situation. Can you imagine someone like Vince Lombardi saying to his players. All right men, lets go out there and be mediocre and if we are getting our heads handed to us, well then, lets just throw in the towel, sink the ship, burn the fort and any other cliche you want apply (insert cliche here). And to do it openly and express it that way, I mean why even bowl just take a card and a stamp and mail in whatever score you want, cuts down on the price of equipment. Stamps are cheaper than bowling balls, at least for now anyways. My 2 cents worth, you can have the soapbox back Mike.

HM

I understand your frustration, but I think the football analogy is not accurate. Pro teams do it all the time when they lock themselves into the playoffs early, then play the 2nd and 3rd stringers to "rest" their A squad in any games left before the playoffs begin. Would that be "bagging"? It definitely isn't trying your best no matter what... Why bother showing up, just give the W and forfeit those games and rest the entire team.
--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

This isn't bagging in football. Bagging in football would be a crappy team, knowing they are eliminated from the playoffs intentionally losing games to get a higher draft pick.

What you described is just smart, resting players. Still trying to do your best with what is on the field.
--------------------
ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

rackattack · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2009, 10:45:46 AM »

I''ve heard this many times on the lanes but for a different reason.
A''200'' bowler with an inflated opinion of himself will be solid on a particular shot but poor at adjusting.
When his shot goes south and he can''t hit butt from elbow,he''ll tell anyone who will listen he''s practicing ''average management''.
This guy isn''t a bagger he''s just pitiful.
He would rather be known as a bagger than a so so bowler.
A true bagger is much more subtle and goes to great lengths to avoid detection.
Call a real bagger out for intentionally missing and he will throw off once or twice more then suddenly refind his shot and recover to a point where no fault can be pointed out. After all,anyone can have a few off shots.
True baggers do not announce their intentions.They quietly go about their business and are usually among the admired bowlers.
--------------------

It''s all about the X

Edited on 9/29/2009 10:47 AM

BowlingWolf · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2009, 11:11:37 AM »

quote:
He basically told him he was going throw his last game to see if they could win the first game to give him more handicapâ€¦We were quite shocked that we heard it. The moron didn't look at the scores very well, because the first game we beat them by over 100.

I'm not sure I understand what the above means.

If a team had already lost the first game, how would purposely bowling bad in the hopes of having a FUTURE lower handicap affect scores and matches already in the books?

I do agree with those that have said this guy is not a real sandbaggerâ€”heâ€™s just trying to save face â€˜cause he canâ€™t seem to get things going, so if he says heâ€™s going to start bowling bad on purpose, heâ€™s actually just bowling bad â€˜cause he has no clue as to what heâ€™s doing for the moment, but he wants people to have the impression that heâ€™s not shooting well because heâ€™s dumping on purposeâ€”a real dufus.

--------------------
Wise men talk because they have something to say--Fools, because they have to say something.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2009, 11:12:35 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
I was an eyewitness to this clown and his behaviour. Its not the fact that the guy did it that bothers me because idiots also inhabit and share the planet. To me it is a disgrace and an insult to the sport and to all bowlers aside from it being a blatant disrespect to the game. I don't get when people will trade mediocrity in place of always trying your best at whatever you do no matter what the situation. Can you imagine someone like Vince Lombardi saying to his players. All right men, lets go out there and be mediocre and if we are getting our heads handed to us, well then, lets just throw in the towel, sink the ship, burn the fort and any other cliche you want apply (insert cliche here). And to do it openly and express it that way, I mean why even bowl just take a card and a stamp and mail in whatever score you want, cuts down on the price of equipment. Stamps are cheaper than bowling balls, at least for now anyways. My 2 cents worth, you can have the soapbox back Mike.

HM

I understand your frustration, but I think the football analogy is not accurate. Pro teams do it all the time when they lock themselves into the playoffs early, then play the 2nd and 3rd stringers to "rest" their A squad in any games left before the playoffs begin. Would that be "bagging"? It definitely isn't trying your best no matter what... Why bother showing up, just give the W and forfeit those games and rest the entire team.
--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

This isn't bagging in football. Bagging in football would be a crappy team, knowing they are eliminated from the playoffs intentionally losing games to get a higher draft pick.

What you described is just smart, resting players. Still trying to do your best with what is on the field.
--------------------
ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

Good point. I don't know why I feel argumentive today, but I kinda do, so I'll not hijack this thread, and will start another with my response for fun.

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

trash heap · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2009, 12:07:55 PM »

BowlingWolf,

Good Point! For this league, average is calculated based on the first 3 games they bowl. This was the sub''s first night. His highest game out of the three was his first.

Without looking at the team total scores of the 1st game, he thought he could give a win to his team if bowled bad enough on his last game.

Example (Of what can happen if someone cheats)

Team 1 (Average - Handicap) and Scores for three games.

Sarah (101 - 87) 100, 105, 110
Lucy (120 - 72) 115, 121, 128
Bob (163 - 37) 184, 200, 190
Dumb Bagger (174 - 34) 210, 182, 130

Dumb Bagger gets 28 pins of handicap because he decides to bowl well under his average on the third game.

Team 2 (Average - Handicap) and scores for three games.

Betty (140 - 56) 155, 170, 163
Barb (108 - 81) 120, 135, 131
Bill (177 - 26) 170, 140, 192
Barry (195 - 12) 205, 183, 210

Total Team 1 Handicap = 224
Total Team 2 Handicap = 175

Game Totals with Handicap:

Team 1 = 833, 832, 782
Team 2 = 825, 803, 871

If Dumb Bagger throws 165 or higher on his third game they lose game 1. So instead he tells his team (since they have no chance of winning half way through game three) he will purposely NOT Strike or pick up spares to get his handicap up so they can win game 1.

Edited on 9/29/2009 12:51 PM

hammermark · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2009, 12:42:19 AM »

Wolf,

I hear what you are saying and I also concur there is a fine line between sandbagging and just plain struggling. But the guy carries a 200 average which means he has ability. You can't be lost all the time and carry that sort of average. I mean I hear you, lanes break down conditions change but bowlers who average at that level adjust for that and they know how to do it. I carry a 200 average myself and I have bowled a 130 game. But allow me to contrast my 130 game with what I saw with my own two eyes. When I had the 130 game I had 6 splits in the game and I just couldnt get my ball/balls to not track the head pin. I was trying to hit the pocket and was missing by a fraction of an inch. I moved around, I changed balls I never gave up trying. This guy throws his first shot and leaves a 6-10. He is using a high end Storm ball and when he lines up to shoot the 6-10 he is standing over the second arrow. Given this guys delivery and what I saw him throw for 2 plus games, there was no way this guy was trying to convert that spare. Not standing on the right side with a hook delivery throwing a high end reactive ball. To me thats blantant dumping of a game and its a disgrace to the sport.

HM

BowlingWolf · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2009, 05:57:36 PM »

quote:

Wolf,

I hear what you are saying and I also concur there is a fine line between sandbagging and just plain struggling. But the guy carries a 200 average which means he has ability. You can't be lost all the time and carry that sort of average. I mean I hear you, lanes break down conditions change but bowlers who average at that level adjust for that and they know how to do it. I carry a 200 average myself and I have bowled a 130 game. But allow me to contrast my 130 game with what I saw with my own two eyes. When I had the 130 game I had 6 splits in the game and I just couldnt get my ball/balls to not track the head pin. I was trying to hit the pocket and was missing by a fraction of an inch. I moved around, I changed balls I never gave up trying. This guy throws his first shot and leaves a 6-10. He is using a high end Storm ball and when he lines up to shoot the 6-10 he is standing over the second arrow. Given this guys delivery and what I saw him throw for 2 plus games, there was no way this guy was trying to convert that spare. Not standing on the right side with a hook delivery throwing a high end reactive ball. To me thats blantant dumping of a game and its a disgrace to the sport.

HM

hammermark,

Given your account of the events as stated by you above, one would have to agree that the said clown was purposely dumping.

However, based on the prior description of the event as related by the OP (and your previous post didnâ€™t indicate how things actually transpired)â€¦

quote:

He basically told him he was going throw his last game to see if they could win the first game to give him more handicap. We were quite shocked that we heard it.

â€¦It was difficult to assess how exactly said dumper decided to throw in the towel in the hopes of gaining a handicap advantage for future purposes.

That being said, I can understand why you say that this clown was â€œsandbaggingâ€â€”however, he is not a true sandbagger because he was lost (he averages around a deuce, his first game is slightly above 200, his second is not as good, and throws the last one in the toilet).

This guy was lost, plain and simple. Just because one averages 200 today, doesnâ€™t qualify him as a legit 200 shooter in my book. Today, anyone can buy high-end equipment and strike enough to be able to reach the 200 average mark, without being a solid shooter (knowing how to properly adjust when the lanes break-down, and being a quality spare shooter).

(A note on being lost, by the way, it happens to everyone, including todayâ€™s legit scratch shooters, which I would qualify as being those that are able to average a minimum of 220-225 on a THS.)

Getting back to my point on why I donâ€™t think this guy qualifies as dumper, but rather someone who is just saving face by making believe that heâ€™s shooting bad on purpose because heâ€™s truly lost and canâ€™t find a solution to fix his game gone bad:

A true sandbagger is someone who knows how to dump, without it being obvious to others (as opposed to the guy in this story).

A true sandbagger is someone who begins bowling badly when he or his team is ahead (the match point for him and/or his team is already out of reach for his opponents), just so that he can then try to keep his average lower with the hopes of keeping the handicap down for future purposes, whether it be for when he bowls in his league or in handicap tourneys.

So, as I said before, the guy in the story is a dufus and not a true sandbagger, especially since heâ€™s only a sub and may not get to play for the team that he was subbing for again during the season.

I do however understand your frustration and ire at this guy, and completely agree that one should always strive to do oneâ€™s best no matter whatâ€”itâ€™s a matter of pride and principle, qualities that many people lack, unfortunately.

--------------------
Wise men talk because they have something to say--Fools, because they have to say something.

hammermark · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2009, 10:23:36 AM »

Wolf,

Good points and I do agree with you and I have to admit that my 200 average is probably somewhat of a fraud (harsh term) or overinflated (kinder term) because it basically is shot on a league pattern and I know when I go to local and state tournaments and participate there I experience a drop off if you will sometimes 15 to 20 pins, sometimes I hold my own but the shot is a little more challenging. When I do bowl for fun on PBA pattern nights, I have the same sort of drop off. Mainly I guess because its not a condition I am used to bowling on with regularity. I would say my average is somewhat of a fair average for that particular league shot because I tend to carry it in other establishments that lay down a league pattern. But I understand what you mean about an authentic average if you will. I also understand what you mean about sandbagger and I probably semanticly misuse the term at times. I know there are guys who do this sort of thing on purpose and are good at making it look like they are not versus this guy who not only voiced it but then went up there and made it look pretty obvious to me given the potential ability of this bowler. It would have been one thing if he properly lined up cross alley and at least made it look like he was trying to convert the spare shot and missed it which is sort of what I was getting at. If you average 200 even on a league shot, you have some knowledge and ability for the game and thereby would probably line up left and go across the lane for the 6-10 conversion and earlier in the match he did line up over there and changed balls to shoot at 10 pins and right side spare shots. To purposely line up in front of it and tank the shot was what I was saying to me is a disrespect and disgrace not only to the sport but to other bowlers and the concept of fair competition in its own right irregardless of whether you are winning, losing or tied.

HM

Author Topic: Dumb Bagger (Read 2414 times)

trash heap

Dumb Bagger

trash heap

Re: Dumb Bagger

hammermark

Re: Dumb Bagger

On Further Review

Re: Dumb Bagger

9andaWiggle

Re: Dumb Bagger

Krakken

Re: Dumb Bagger

rackattack

Re: Dumb Bagger

BowlingWolf

Re: Dumb Bagger

9andaWiggle

Re: Dumb Bagger

trash heap

Re: Dumb Bagger

hammermark

Re: Dumb Bagger

BowlingWolf

Re: Dumb Bagger

hammermark

Re: Dumb Bagger