BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on December 10, 2013, 01:31:34 PM
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. . and don't like where the layout puts the fingers, so you keep adjusting the numbers a bit at a time until it looks right, which completely negates picking out a layout in the first place? Laying out a Primal Rage, started at 65x4x35, but I really like where 60x4.5x40 puts the fingers a lot better, but lol that's not the reaction I want . . what a damn princess . .
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The funniest part is you think you'll see a difference between those two.
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Shh, we'll have none of that realistic nonsense here.
The funniest part is you think you'll see a difference between those two.
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The funniest part is you think you'll see a difference between those two.
I spit out my drink when I read that. No lie.
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I've done it, of course we did it because it was going to put the pin really close to one of the finger holes and the driller was afraid it would bust out. He had one just do the same thing so I couldn't blame him heh.
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I do this with almost every ball I drill. Have an idea and just dont like the way it looks. Doesnt sound crazy to me.
Matt
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The funniest part is you think you'll see a difference between those two.
Funniest thing I have read on here in a long time
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I've seen Mo post before if it puts the pin too close to the fingers move it accordingly to give a safe buffer.
The pin marks the low rg axis which shifts away from drilled holes. It is going to move no matter what, no need in thinking a few degrees or a fraction of inches will make or break it's reaction.
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1:30 pin, 1/2 side, 1/2 finger.
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Yeah I know, the change didn't shift the fingers much at all, it's just a mental numbers thing. There isn't going to be any difference, but I picked 65x4x35 and that's what I want. Whether there's a difference or not, if I wanted 60x4.5x40 I'd have picked it in the first place lol. Again, I realize the difference won't make any difference, especially because it's a symmetric, it was more just a joke or casual humor . .
I've seen Mo post before if it puts the pin too close to the fingers move it accordingly to give a safe buffer.
The pin marks the low rg axis which shifts away from drilled holes. It is going to move no matter what, no need in thinking a few degrees or a fraction of inches will make or break it's reaction.
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Most of the good bowlers I've ever been around lay out their stuff by looks anyway.
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Most of the good bowlers I've ever been around lay out their stuff by looks anyway.
I'm not one of those good bowlers, but that's what I do. I know the basics of pin to PAP, etc. and MB positions so I tend to skip the "dog and pony" show.
Sometimes when laying out a ball in front of the customer I draw some EXTRA lines, too. To quote Nacho Libre, "Ees for fon". My driller knows me by now so he ignores the additional lines and hits the important ones...
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I've done it. Saw a layout I wanted to try, would have half mooned the pin (we don't do that round these parts), changed the layout a little, numbers got in an area I didn't think would work.... 15 in a row during practice session and shot 300 and a few 290's and 289's. Sooooo, that's when I learned that layouts are nice but weight holes are better. Lol
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Yeah, once you get the feel for it, you know where the layout is going to put the fingers anyway. My layouts all end up in about the same place anyway, and no ball and layout choice will ever give you EXACTLY what you wanted/expected in the first place. Slight adjustments are always needed here or there. I'm not going to go as far as saying layouts are irrelevant, but I don't think they factor in as much as people think they do. This kid I've been working with has drilled about 10 balls since May, and redrilled 5 of them trying every layout on the planet, and all I've really seen is that the balls all react just like they do for everyone else regardless of layout. He even had two of the same ball drilled drastically different, and complained that they reacted exactly the same. This is another one of those monkey putting 3 holes in the ball thing, all of his own doing, I didn't have any say in ball choice or layout. Just not seeing layout have that much of an effect . . or at least nothing that overcomes ball design or bowler style.
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You never can get two of the same ball drilled identical to be the same, so don't sweat the small stuff.
But if you think that half an inch and 5 degrees are going to make a difference maybe you'll strike once more next month. Let's see, an extra strike a month, 9 month season, almost a pin in average.
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You never can get two of the same ball drilled identical to be the same, so don't sweat the small stuff.
But if you think that half an inch and 5 degrees are going to make a difference maybe you'll strike once more next month. Let's see, an extra strike a month, 9 month season, almost a pin in average.
Times that by 10 balls to bowl on the THS, and that's 10 pins in average!
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Lmao . . I don't strike any more or any less with balls that I dual angle or don't . . Funny how this works though. You downplay it and say it's not that important, then people think you're clueless and/or lazy. You get too technical and people say it's not as big of a deal as you're making it. Doesn't seem to be any middle of the road with anybody in bowling.
You never can get two of the same ball drilled identical to be the same, so don't sweat the small stuff.
But if you think that half an inch and 5 degrees are going to make a difference maybe you'll strike once more next month. Let's see, an extra strike a month, 9 month season, almost a pin in average.
Times that by 10 balls to bowl on the THS, and that's 10 pins in average!
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Well, 5 degrees isn't really going to make much of a difference, especially on a house shot. As always, you're going to see a bigger difference due to surface prep. The guys that I like are the ones that are like "I laid this out 52x4-1/8x36.3" Really?
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The guys that are good enough for it to make a difference don't care about it and the guys that care about it aren't good enough for it to make a difference.
That bout sums it up.
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I'd love to see a comparison video to see if those small changes make a difference. And I mean one with a throbot, or something consistent. Perhaps Blueprint or one of those other software programs out there. I'm guess on a house shot, it would be hardly noticeable. Maybe a little more noticeable on a tougher pattern.
And I find myself moving the center of the grip often to try to keep the pin from being partially drilled out ... all the time.
. . and don't like where the layout puts the fingers, so you keep adjusting the numbers a bit at a time until it looks right, which completely negates picking out a layout in the first place? Laying out a Primal Rage, started at 65x4x35, but I really like where 60x4.5x40 puts the fingers a lot better, but lol that's not the reaction I want . . what a damn princess . .
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Maybe with Throbot and CATS, but not with a human throwing it or just watching the ball reaction. Especially the bowler throwing the ball watching the ball reaction.
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I'd love to see a comparison video to see if those small changes make a difference. And I mean one with a throbot, or something consistent. Perhaps Blueprint or one of those other software programs out there. I'm guess on a house shot, it would be hardly noticeable. Maybe a little more noticeable on a tougher pattern.
And I find myself moving the center of the grip often to try to keep the pin from being partially drilled out ... all the time.
. . and don't like where the layout puts the fingers, so you keep adjusting the numbers a bit at a time until it looks right, which completely negates picking out a layout in the first place? Laying out a Primal Rage, started at 65x4x35, but I really like where 60x4.5x40 puts the fingers a lot better, but lol that's not the reaction I want . . what a damn princess . .
Of the same ball.
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Not sure if that is a question ... but yeah, of the same ball.
Two balls, same specs, slightly different drills. You would probably have to use a flat shot to see the difference, because on a house shot, they might both strike with just slightly different lines (or shapes).
And in the end if one ball hooked 1 board more on the back or midlane, would that really matter to a customer? And like someone pointed out earlier, surface adjustment will mean more (most of the time).
I'd love to see a comparison video to see if those small changes make a difference. And I mean one with a throbot, or something consistent. Perhaps Blueprint or one of those other software programs out there. I'm guess on a house shot, it would be hardly noticeable. Maybe a little more noticeable on a tougher pattern.
And I find myself moving the center of the grip often to try to keep the pin from being partially drilled out ... all the time.
. . and don't like where the layout puts the fingers, so you keep adjusting the numbers a bit at a time until it looks right, which completely negates picking out a layout in the first place? Laying out a Primal Rage, started at 65x4x35, but I really like where 60x4.5x40 puts the fingers a lot better, but lol that's not the reaction I want . . what a damn princess . .
Of the same ball.
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Differing ball specs would have more of an effect, especially on a house shot. What's a 1 or half board difference when you have 5 to work with? And would you even notice or make that incredibly small adjustment without even knowing it? We're into itsallaboutme's law of diminishing returns . .
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Come on now, don't start thinking like that. You'll take the fun out of it for me.
When you trip the 4 next month you can say if was that extra 5 degrees of layout. Tripping the 4 is a lost art ya know.
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I'll keep a log . .
Come on now, don't start thinking like that. You'll take the fun out of it for me.
When you trip the 4 next month you can say if was that extra 5 degrees of layout. Tripping the 4 is a lost art ya know.
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Differing ball specs would have more of an effect, especially on a house shot. What's a 1 or half board difference when you have 5 to work with? And would you even notice or make that incredibly small adjustment without even knowing it? We're into itsallaboutme's law of diminishing returns . .
I understand your point, but if you can only get your ball to hook 4 or 5 boards on a house shot, then 5 degrees and/or .5" of pin position isn't gonna get you 25% more hook.
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5 boards of area, not 5 boards of total hook.
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5 boards of area, not 5 boards of total hook.
Ok thanks ... senior moment.
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Surface prep, and your own style of release have immensely more impact on carry than a small difference in layout.
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Think about the things mentioned and how much focus some put on them and how little they truly matter with bowling balls and THS conditions.
People refer to the dual angle method like it does something different then just eyeballing a drilling. The D.A.M. and 4x4x4 and anything else are all different ways of saying the same thing. The D.A.M. method is a precise way that says the these drill angles give you this kind of reaction, this pin to pap difference effect it this way, then the VAL angle gives you these characteristics. You can do the same thing by eyeballing it, the ball doesn't know the difference. Duplicating it, the DAM would be the exact way, where as the eyeball method gets you in the ball park.
Now I have played with the BP software and tried using different pin to pap distances on the same layout, different MB positions, different side weights ect and it shows on a THS that the differences are minimal. Surface was always the bigger factor.
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Pic #1
Here is a Taboo with two different layouts (pin up vs pin down)
75x5x30 vs 75x5x70 chart
pic #2
Same Taboo with two different layouts (mb by val vs mb by thumb)
40x5x30 vs 80x5x30
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First pic is a ball with 1oz positive side weight, no side weight, then 1oz negative side weight graphed in that order.
Second pic is a outburst drilled 30 X 3" 4" 5" 6" X 75 in that order
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The biggest difference in reaction always came with surface adjustments.
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Yeap, that's pretty much what the ball motion study said. And one of my points about the dual angle (as said in one of my articles) was the same as what you said, it's not some radical wild way to lay stuff out, it's just adding a bit of precision or maybe more accurate repeatability . .
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And I might have to spring for that Blueprint software, that's really cool. Good teaching tool too.
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Or to sell Pro Sects
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Thanks for posting that. Two question:
1. For pic #1 you have pin up vs pin down. Why keep the angles the same and move the pin to pap distance? When I think pin up vs pin down, I think the same pin to pap distance, but changing the drill and val angles.
2. What shot did you use .. if it is a house shot, is that what is reducing some of the effects of the drilling changes, or will you sill these small differences on any shot?
Pic #1
Here is a Taboo with two different layouts (pin up vs pin down)
30x3x50 vs 30x6x50 chart
pic #2
Same Taboo with two different layouts (mb by val vs mb by thumb)
30x5x40 vs 30x5x80
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Thanks for posting that. Two question:
1. For pic #1 you have pin up vs pin down. Why keep the angles the same and move the pin to pap distance? When I think pin up vs pin down, I think the same pin to pap distance, but changing the drill and val angles.
2. What shot did you use .. if it is a house shot, is that what is reducing some of the effects of the drilling changes, or will you sill these small differences on any shot?
Pic #1
Here is a Taboo with two different layouts (pin up vs pin down)
30x3x50 vs 30x6x50 chart
pic #2
Same Taboo with two different layouts (mb by val vs mb by thumb)
30x5x40 vs 30x5x80
Used the wrong pic. That was a 3" pin vs a 6" pin on the same layout. They get to be very similar if you don't pay attention lol.
Made the correct update to the pictures and the angles.
The shot used was a house shot pattern. Didn't really try many of the others during the free trial like I had wished. THS blend the looks of a lot of different layouts and bowling balls.
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Everything I thought was a lie. A LIE!
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For those who were curious about a video, I remembered this from a while back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSCwh-E8Fw
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It is a great video. Too many want to argue it, and the Brunswick video with the throwbots actual results.
It is a shame but too many people want to believe that a little weight here or there will make all of the difference.
If it is within USBC guidelines of 1 oz it will not matter. If you get in the 2.5 ozs or greater of side weight, top weight ect then it does have an affect on ball reaction. Since that is illegal for obvious reason I would guess then it still shows that "CG NO MATTA".