BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: gradilonec on December 09, 2014, 08:28:17 AM
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Every pro shop owner I've gone to has been confused as to how I could track so low, but only have between 9-11* tilt. They've watched me bowl, but no one, including myself can figure it out. Anyone have any typical reasons for this?
It also has made layouts somewhat of a guessing game. I've found one layout that I have on almost all my equipment, but it was a shot in the dark and ended up liking.
Stats:
218avg
19.5mph
395rpm
tract: low/extreme low
tilt: 9-11*
PAP: (have to double check later)
Any opinions are welcome
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Slow-mo HD camera won't lie...... ;)
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Slow-mo HD camera won't lie...... ;)
Some video would be best option for anyone here to really help you
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There is a conflict here. If your track is low then you should have a higher tilt.
Curious, how did you figure out the tilt (9-11*)?
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Nothing is absolute...everyone's role is individual and has to do with body type, length of arms and more so to size of hand & digits....
Anomaly-Michael Fagan - 3.5" > 1.5"^ and track circumference 27"...
I've dealt with players whose pap was 9"> 2.5"^...try laying that out
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Fagan bowled hs for pat-med when I was bowling for bellport hs (same home lanes) . .he and I have similar releases. Probably explains a lot.
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lol I also have bear palms and nubby fingers
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I met a guy years ago who pretty much said the same thing. I didn't question him about his low track med/low tilt for he has over 25 years experience in bowling and half in the shop. But, when I first heard this I was taken back...
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Anomaly-Michael Fagan - 3.5" > 1.5"^ and track circumference 27"...
If the initial track circumference is 27" then the tilt must be 0. How can a ball have any tilt if it is tracking over the widest part of it?
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Have you seen Fagan bowl? You explain it (:
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The modern dynamic cores seem to have an impact on this that we usually didn't see in the old days of 3 piece balls. In those days the lower the track, the more axis tilt, and the smaller the track. However, occasionally a guy would have a release that didn't fit the mold. I don't remember who it was, but there was a tour player in the early 70's that threw what somebody called an outside full roller. Ball tracked outside the thumb, but the track was almost full circumference like a full roller.
Today we see tracks that appear to be much lower, but are still bigger than one would expect from looking at the PAP.
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It is a sphere rolling on a flat surface. How can it be anything else but 0* tilt?
It doesn't matter where the track is on the ball. 27" is full circumference of a bowling ball. Split the ball in half along that track and you have two equal pieces.
After that first revolution the track might change, however it is the initial track we are discussing here.
The only true test would be to have him throw a plastic ball. A ball that will not flip or transition in any way. The ball like that would stay on the same track for several feet down the lane.
Is it possible for the track closest to thumb on the ball not actually be the initial track?
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Ball tracked outside the thumb, but the track was almost full circumference like a full roller.
I know a bowler that has that type of track. Tilt is 3*.
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PBIII and Billy O have extremely high tracks with circumference very close to 27"...not sure i understand the reference of outside full roller?
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Is it possible for the track closest to thumb on the ball not actually be the initial track?
Yes, if the pin is in a position that causes reverse flare, like a full roller layout thrown by a semi-roller. -- JohnP
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Nobody has mentioned this, but I always view tilt, and axis tilt which comes from circling the ball at release. Enough axis tilt and you are throwing a semi spinner, and the track starts to get smaller. Not really sure how you express this in a number, but think of spinning the ball by circling it. With no forward motion the ball is spinning on small spot directly under the center of grip. Add forward motion and friction starts to create more roll and less spin. However theoretically it would be possible to throw a ball with zero initial PAP, although it would quickly migrate towards the preferred spin axis.
When I was young we all threw semi rollers with more tilt than we do today, because most of us who were not full rollers came from a thumb position of as much as 2 oclock. Thus we were circling and lifting to create hook. More circling the wrist and less lift equated to more tilt and a lower track. More lift combined with circling raised the track.
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Nobody has mentioned this, but I always view tilt, and axis tilt which comes from circling the ball at release. Enough axis tilt and you are throwing a semi spinner, and the track starts to get smaller. Not really sure how you express this in a number, but think of spinning the ball by circling it.
The tilt number would be represented in the size of the track. Circumference of a bowling ball is 27 inches:
- An initial track of 27 inches going around the ball (a full roller) would be 0* tilt.
- 22 inches would be 17* tilt.
- 13.5 inches would be 45* of tilt (doubt anyone has that low of a track).
As the track decreases the tilt increases.
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Not always true, just as Fagan and even myself disprove that notion
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It's science.
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Take the thumb and finger holes out of the ball.
Imagine someone throwing and rotating a ball on a flat surface. The ball flares in no way shape or form. It stays on its "INITIAL TRACK" for many revolutions after the person throws it.
As that ball is rotating. It has a:
- PAP (Positive Access Point),
- Axis Rotation (Horizontal Rotation), Side Roll
- Axis Tilt (Vertical Rotation), Spin
It is a SPHERE! It is impossible to have a low tilt (0* - 10*) and the track be very low too.
Today's bowlers fall into 0* - 17* tilt range. Get above 20* of tilt and you are getting into more of spinner type release.
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So explain Fagans 3.5 pap low track but full roller, or my 4 1/8 low track but single digit tilt
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tilt and axis point are independent numbers. Tilt is the size of your track, PAP is where the axis is in relation to your grip.
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Actually, by definition you cant have a 3.5 inch PAP and throw a full roller. A full roller tracks between the thumb and fingers, putting the PAP approximately 6 3/4 inches from centers of grip. The fact that a ball can track so far from the fingers like Fagan, and still be the full circumference is a product of the modern so called, less is more release that has become the norm for top players.
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Many people can have the same PAP and all of them have different tilt.
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Full roller is referencing the size of the track not the location
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Full roller is referencing the size of the track not the location
and the size of the track determines the tilt.
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yes, but the discussion isnt just about the size of the track but the location.
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nobody can tell you why your track is in the location it is unless we see you pry your mitt out of the ball.
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Traditional full roller was almost always between thumb and fingers. Agree that it is a full circumference, but until the modern dynamic cores came in, it was almost impossible to create a full circumference track with enough axis tilt to get the track outside the thumb. Thus this thread has come full circle. Tilt comes from counter clockwise wrist rotation, while a full roller cannot have counter clockwise wrist rotation.