BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: sdbowler on May 06, 2012, 06:57:21 PM
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I subbed in state tournament this weekend for a friend who has been really sick. Shot 710 in team. Happy as hell with that. Bowled doubles and singles today. Not so good. Shot 560 in doubles and lucky enough to shoot 570 in singles. Had nothing weak enough to play the lanes. Pulled out the weakest ball I had and tried to take all my hand out of it. Still covering most of the lane.
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Isn't strange how they keep wanting us to buy more hook but then you go to a tourney and you need a plastic ball to even be able to stay on your side of the lane. Go figure!!!!
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I don't mean this to be a tangent but I sometimes wonder if the solid oil that is used in today's machines have a significant effect on the lane play and how dry they appear. Back years ago on wood lanes solvent based oils were the norm. I have noticed for the past 2 years the lanes appear to be drier and with more traction. I am learning to play deeper as playing the beak is no longer an effective alternative in leagues in the area I bowl. I am not sure it is so much less volume as viscosity of the oil.
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Baltimora that is a great point. Being out of the sport for a few years I have lost touch with everything. So that is very interesting to me. I know I need to work a lot on my game if I get back into it. I am happy with the little I have bowled and what I have done. However I know there is a lot to do. Relearning how to adjust is a big thing.
Notsohotshot you are right on the head with that,. A plastic ball or urethane would have been great. I was thinking about seeing if the shop had a urethane ball to drill up. Thanks for the replies guys.
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Thats why I use a Slingshot for my spare ball so that when they get toasted I still have something with a decent weight block to throw. If you don't have a low end ball like the SS etc you should if you bowl tourneys. The houses I bowl in around here can be toast in less than 3 games.
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I have a Power Groove. However with not bowling over the past few years I have not kept up with pitch changes or anything to be correct. I am not able to use it. I tried to use it a month ago and it went about half way down the lane in the air. I think that would have been a great ball to use. That or I have a Fury polished pretty good, however I think that would have been to strong.
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Isn't strange how they keep wanting us to buy more hook but then you go to a tourney and you need a plastic ball to even be able to stay on your side of the lane. Go figure!!!!
Totally agree - had some similar "revelation" around here, too. Summer season has more or less started, and centers start putting down even less/shorter oil. In two houses where I went for practice I had, for instance, to put my Hell Raiser back into the bag after 3 frames, because it could not be played at all (at least by me).
Yesterday in training I used my Solaris Blackout - certainly not a strong ball - and had to stand on 30th board and deeper in order to get the ball into the pocket at all.
I mean, where does this lead to? I am slowly getting fed up because I do not have to work on being exact, my biggest challenge has become taming down the back end of my equipment, getting ever more length out of it while trying to keep up a sound skid/hook/roll transition? It has become more or less impossible for me to put some hand into a ball...
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Many moons ago some of the best advise i ever received.... The lane may be 60ft long but you don't have to use all of it.... Learn to loft the ball and flattern it out.. take the heads out of the equation.. Watch some of the pros in later blocks.. Its simple... ::)
We used to practice by putting a towel on the lane say 5 to 10 feet down the lane and bowling over it..
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Lofting is not the issue. But I'd rather use these tricks in LATE games, and not on something that is supposed to be fresh! >:(
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Dizzy, I was answering the posters question 'sdbowler'....!!!
The answer to 'your' query is in your last sentence, ''take some hand out of the ball''.
Why do bowlers assume fresh is loads of oil up front.. Bowl the pattern in front of you not what you would like to have..
You have a SBG use it straight down 5, that is what you bought it for....... :P
Enjoy the challenge that is what bowling is all about... :o
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Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding. Anyway, I was pretty successful in that training session with my Pure Hammer and an old Faball Blue Hammer (which works wonders on such turf), for a 1197 through six games.
Adjusting is not the problem, but I am a bit upset by the HUGE gap between what modern balls are capable of (and actually need to pertform well), and the respective scarse oil volumes I frequently face? It's disturbing?
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Lofting is something that I was never good at. I got use to getting it down early and now I can not do any thing else. I might have a foot of air upon release instead of down on the lane right away. When I try to start to loft I would always get so inconsistent.
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This is something I have mentioned in other forums/topics on here. The lane surface will not become 65 feet in length nor will it go from 39 boards across to 44 to compensate for the strength of the equipment. Furthermore, bowling centers wont go to a standard 42-45 foot pattern and/or beef up the volume. Some centers have more oil in the middle. But most do not. They are using similar lane conditions as they did 10-15 years ago.
I just bowled State Tournament here and I was a little disappointed. Both centers are only running 2 squads a day. Well, there has been roughly a good hour plus time frame from the end of the first squad to the beginning of the second. Problem, they dont see a need to reoil between squads when there is plenty of time to do so. Another issue, was some of our pairs in S/D had 3 on a lane and some had the customary 2 per lane. Things was, the center made sure to keep about 12-14 lanes for the purpose of open play use; not to mention that the S/D house only put down a 33 foot pattern. They had enough lanes to put the 2 per lane in effect for everyone. They just chose not to.
As far as the reoiling issue, the first squad at the team house only had 18 teams and yet there was about an hour and 15 minutes+ to reoil those 18 lanes. Several people went and asked the Director about it and he said no. After that second team squad, I heard a guy in the parking lot say "I average 220 at my home house and come here to shoot 480". Then we want to know why bowling is declining. High scratch AE was around 2050 but high handicap is 2400. A 350 pin difference is a little much if you are trying to keep bowling prospering. I know that tournaments should not be carry contests. I totally get that. However, with the strength of todays equipment, putting out conditions that render them borderline useless is why people are turning away.
I am sorry. but when you walk into a 32 lane house and a State Tournament squad barely fills half the house, that should be an "eye opener".
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Too many guys throwing super aggressive shells right out of the gate, and playing all over the lane. Most tournaments use higher volumes of oil every year, but it makes no difference. Look at the guy on TV. Just a couple of guys, and they can blow up the pattern during an hour of practice. The balls have to be tamed down, so that a more moderate amount of oil will hold up. The other side of the equation is that there is so much oil initially that plastic and urethane balls carry too much down the lane and make the back ends un playable for those balls.
Game would be better if we outlawed resin surfaces and mandated that urethane not be dulled below 2000 grit. This is not about scoring, but about the physical integrity of the lane surface, which simply cannot remain playable with the ball surfaces currently in use.
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Twohand I agree. I was looking at the results of the city tournament from where I just moved back to. There are 4 centers in town. For the city tournament they had 17 teams was all. How the hell can that happen with 4 centers in town? For all events they had 31 people. Once again WHY? You know what I might just start a new topic on this.
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Too many guys throwing super aggressive shells right out of the gate, and playing all over the lane. Most tournaments use higher volumes of oil every year, but it makes no difference. Look at the guy on TV. Just a couple of guys, and they can blow up the pattern during an hour of practice. The balls have to be tamed down, so that a more moderate amount of oil will hold up. The other side of the equation is that there is so much oil initially that plastic and urethane balls carry too much down the lane and make the back ends un playable for those balls.
Game would be better if we outlawed resin surfaces and mandated that urethane not be dulled below 2000 grit. This is not about scoring, but about the physical integrity of the lane surface, which simply cannot remain playable with the ball surfaces currently in use.
To go along with this, think about what balls are marketed these days to regular league bowlers-the most hooking in the line with every new release. And to be honest, most every bowler uses too much ball even in league, I myself have been caught up in this web.
It will always seem the lanes have less and less when the balls get stronger and stronger, and the bolwers never buy mid to low level stuff. Add to this even these range balls get stronger and stronger every year.
I bolwed a tournament over the weekend that has been running the last month, and the lower end of my arsenal- Solaris Blackout, Euphoria and Desperado were all still too much ball for the shot they put out, on wood lanes no less. I have yet to figure out why tournaments continually put less out for patterns then wonder why noone shows up the following year...and its getting to be every tournament I go to...
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It is funny how we used to want to bowl second shift at tournaments to let the lanes break down so you could generate more hook.
Even at nationals you wanted the late team squad after they were broken down. It was the squad most of the scores were shot on.
Now everyone wants fresh oil for every squad.
Largely because the balls strip oil off the lane and they will destroy a lane pattern in short order.
When I was helping in the proshop, bowlers would buy a new hook monster, then complain to the center management that there wasn't enough oil to use it.
You put more oil out and get complaints from others that you are forcing them to buy new equipment because they can't get the old to hook.
Some of this wouldn't be a problem if bowlers would play the lanes where the shot is. But the THS allows everyone to play their favorite line for a while. But then it blows up and becomes nearly unplayable for everybody.
Until we stop the balls from altering the playing surface and/or find a lane surface that doesn't require lane conditioners we are stuck.
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Bowlers will always have something to complain about.
It is funny how we used to want to bowl second shift at tournaments to let the lanes break down so you could generate more hook.
Even at nationals you wanted the late team squad after they were broken down. It was the squad most of the scores were shot on.
Now everyone wants fresh oil for every squad.
Largely because the balls strip oil off the lane and they will destroy a lane pattern in short order.
When I was helping in the proshop, bowlers would buy a new hook monster, then complain to the center management that there wasn't enough oil to use it.
You put more oil out and get complaints from others that you are forcing them to buy new equipment because they can't get the old to hook.
Some of this wouldn't be a problem if bowlers would play the lanes where the shot is. But the THS allows everyone to play their favorite line for a while. But then it blows up and becomes nearly unplayable for everybody.
Until we stop the balls from altering the playing surface and/or find a lane surface that doesn't require lane conditioners we are stuck.
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I agree with pinbuster. To many guys insist on never changing how they play the lanes regardless of condition. The "I play this line in league so it should work everywhere" is commonly heard at tournements. IMO their is plenty of oil on the lane but the bowlers have to know and understand how to use the oil to their advantage burn a spot to play then bump in.
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I subbed in state tournament this weekend for a friend who has been really sick. Shot 710 in team. Happy as hell with that. Bowled doubles and singles today. Not so good. Shot 560 in doubles and lucky enough to shoot 570 in singles. Had nothing weak enough to play the lanes. Pulled out the weakest ball I had and tried to take all my hand out of it. Still covering most of the lane.
Kyle,
I bowled the 700 tournament on Saturday night and didn't have anything weak enough. Funny part is I shot fairly good two weekends ago for doubles, singles and team. Mental note bowl the Friday evening or Saturday or Sunday morning early shift in the future.
Poor bowling aside their were 9 vehicles Saturday night that had windows knocked out, mine were OK until the drive home when the passenger side back window popped on our Tahoe. Hopefully you weren't there in the storms.
Mark
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First, I can not bowl. Second, I can bowl well enough to take my hand out of the ball, reduce the axis tilt, and keep the ball in play. If you are used to doing nothing but grabbing it at the bottom, that is your problem, not a lack of oil.
Have you ever wondered why Norm Duke can play up 5 or 10 when everyone else is inside 20? Granted, he is talented beyond compare. Part of the talent includes his ability to do all of the above, and at the same time manage ball speed to carry.
So, learn how to bowl better, and complain less.
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I subbed in state tournament this weekend for a friend who has been really sick. Shot 710 in team. Happy as hell with that. Bowled doubles and singles today. Not so good. Shot 560 in doubles and lucky enough to shoot 570 in singles. Had nothing weak enough to play the lanes. Pulled out the weakest ball I had and tried to take all my hand out of it. Still covering most of the lane.
Kyle,
I bowled the 700 tournament on Saturday night and didn't have anything weak enough. Funny part is I shot fairly good two weekends ago for doubles, singles and team. Mental note bowl the Friday evening or Saturday or Sunday morning early shift in the future.
Poor bowling aside their were 9 vehicles Saturday night that had windows knocked out, mine were OK until the drive home when the passenger side back window popped on our Tahoe. Hopefully you weren't there in the storms.
Mark
Mark we drove up Saturday morning. Well my wife drove while I was trying to sleep off a migraine. We got to Mitchell just as the second cell was getting bad. We missed all the hail THANK GOD. Listening to KIKN we heard about how cars were sliding off the interstate by Salem due to the hail. We were getting ready to leave Saturday night. We walked out to our car. East of the doors, we got pushed to the car. We sat in there for second or two. Decided to go back in and wait for a little bit. We got pushed back into the building. In those short few seconds the wind went from blowing out of the west to the out of the east. I saw about 4 vehicles that had windows shattered out. We drove home and saw Reed Timmer on one of the off ramps. What a weird day for weather.
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It is funny how we used to want to bowl second shift at tournaments to let the lanes break down so you could generate more hook.
That's the big illusion of today's bowling, and it is IMHO a trap that kills the sport as a skill. Totally agree on the gap between real oil life and what manufacturers want us to buy. Sure, there are also pro shops in between which could intervene and sell Joe Bowler a low end piece, since many offerings are IMO "enough" ball for THS. But there are margins and egoes involved, and there are also lobbies involved which keep this "system" going.
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I can see where you are going with this and I can agree to an extent. However, the PBA uses more volume than what we see at the local level typically. Just ask Sean Rash this year when he moved inside and was crowbarring the ball playing 22 out to 12 at the WSOB and watching the ball do nothing. That is what this topic is about; the volume of oil and not so much the talent level of the bowler. When my doubles partner at State Tournament has a 250 rev rate and has a hard time getting the ball to hold, that simply means the volume out there is not matchng up to the technology level of todays equipment.
Another thing in regards to the PBA; how many times do you see the players using equipment like a Tropical Breeze, a Tornado, a Power Groove, and other entry level resins? Rarely (Ciminelli used a natural a couple times and Belmo won using plastic a couple years ago). Take the guy with the highest rev rate on tour and what did he throw all year (on tv anyway)? Marvel Pearls, Critical Theory, and even a Nano at the US Open; all high end balls.
For the record....we are not talking about this as a complaint, but more of a concern as to where the sport is going to be 5-10 years from now. With the combination of a bad economy and bad management, your local level bowlers are going to stray from bowling tournaments because they wont pony up the cash to average 170 because centers are too stubborn to put a decent amount of oil volume on the lanes. Centers are putting out close-your-eyes easy shots and having their bowlers average 210+ and then putting out half the volume at tournaments and then they average 170. Then they want to know why tournament participation is declining. Hmmmmmmm..........I wonder why.
First, I can not bowl. Second, I can bowl well enough to take my hand out of the ball, reduce the axis tilt, and keep the ball in play. If you are used to doing nothing but grabbing it at the bottom, that is your problem, not a lack of oil.
Have you ever wondered why Norm Duke can play up 5 or 10 when everyone else is inside 20? Granted, he is talented beyond compare. Part of the talent includes his ability to do all of the above, and at the same time manage ball speed to carry.
So, learn how to bowl better, and complain less.
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I can see where you are going with this and I can agree to an extent. However, the PBA uses more volume than what we see at the local level typically. Just ask Sean Rash this year when he moved inside and was crowbarring the ball playing 22 out to 12 at the WSOB and watching the ball do nothing. That is what this topic is about; the volume of oil and not so much the talent level of the bowler. When my doubles partner at State Tournament has a 250 rev rate and has a hard time getting the ball to hold, that simply means the volume out there is not matchng up to the technology level of todays equipment.
Another thing in regards to the PBA; how many times do you see the players using equipment like a Tropical Breeze, a Tornado, a Power Groove, and other entry level resins? Rarely (Ciminelli used a natural a couple times and Belmo won using plastic a couple years ago). Take the guy with the highest rev rate on tour and what did he throw all year (on tv anyway)? Marvel Pearls, Critical Theory, and even a Nano at the US Open; all high end balls.
For the record....we are not talking about this as a complaint, but more of a concern as to where the sport is going to be 5-10 years from now. With the combination of a bad economy and bad management, your local level bowlers are going to stray from bowling tournaments because they wont pony up the cash to average 170 because centers are too stubborn to put a decent amount of oil volume on the lanes. Centers are putting out close-your-eyes easy shots and having their bowlers average 210+ and then putting out half the volume at tournaments and then they average 170. Then they want to know why tournament participation is declining. Hmmmmmmm..........I wonder why.
First, I can not bowl. Second, I can bowl well enough to take my hand out of the ball, reduce the axis tilt, and keep the ball in play. If you are used to doing nothing but grabbing it at the bottom, that is your problem, not a lack of oil.
Have you ever wondered why Norm Duke can play up 5 or 10 when everyone else is inside 20? Granted, he is talented beyond compare. Part of the talent includes his ability to do all of the above, and at the same time manage ball speed to carry.
So, learn how to bowl better, and complain less.
+1000, and totally what the topic is all about. We all know(at least myself anyways) that we need to get better, its not about that at all. But, we arent Norm Duke either, and honestly noone on this board has the skills he has even at his age, so that is a useless comparison.
The problem is consistent at almost every tournament I go to- 99% of the bowlers participating use way too much ball on patterns that would require less aggressive equipment, and another part of the equation is typically the majority of bowlers out there have consistently bought/or have been sold more and more aggressive equipment, instead of having a more rounded arsenal from most to least aggressive stuff.
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That is just part of the stubborness of us bowlers. Just because they make super hook monsters doesnt mean we have to buy them. Most mid performance balls now are plenty strong enough to tackle 80-90% of todays lane conditions. Really the only people that need the high end stuff, are those that are really speed dominate and those that travel alot to bowl tournaments. 90% of us dont need it on league patterns. The only comparison to the PBA condition wise is the Cheetah pattern which is the shortest pattern they use (36 feet?) However, the oil volume is still there to help the ball push. How else would the pattern still play outside as opposed to playing 4th arrow? I blame the manufacturers more than anybody for coming up with the goal of "Lets absorb oil at a faster rate". Why would we want to absorb oil when it is the single most important factor in our sport? Makes no sense to me.
The reason I agreed to an extent with the Norm Duke reference, is more because of the knowledge on what to on a given condition. I heard rumor that State was 33 feet in length and hooking alot. So, when I got home from bowling team, I pulled anything out of the bag that really hooked with the exception of one ball, a highly polished AMB Solid. Other than that, I took a highly polished Ebonite Black Ice with 2 inch pin to PAP, a Ebonite Tornado pin up 5.5 inch pin to PAP, a Warlock DC Tour highly polished, and my spare ball. The others on my pair, dull finish 300T, dull finish Ultimate Inferno just to name a couple. Needless to say what was in the track to start with was completely shot by end of first game and there was 5 more to go. It is what it is, though. I shot 1850 and finished 550 pins from the leader in All Events Handicap.
I can see where you are going with this and I can agree to an extent. However, the PBA uses more volume than what we see at the local level typically. Just ask Sean Rash this year when he moved inside and was crowbarring the ball playing 22 out to 12 at the WSOB and watching the ball do nothing. That is what this topic is about; the volume of oil and not so much the talent level of the bowler. When my doubles partner at State Tournament has a 250 rev rate and has a hard time getting the ball to hold, that simply means the volume out there is not matchng up to the technology level of todays equipment.
Another thing in regards to the PBA; how many times do you see the players using equipment like a Tropical Breeze, a Tornado, a Power Groove, and other entry level resins? Rarely (Ciminelli used a natural a couple times and Belmo won using plastic a couple years ago). Take the guy with the highest rev rate on tour and what did he throw all year (on tv anyway)? Marvel Pearls, Critical Theory, and even a Nano at the US Open; all high end balls.
For the record....we are not talking about this as a complaint, but more of a concern as to where the sport is going to be 5-10 years from now. With the combination of a bad economy and bad management, your local level bowlers are going to stray from bowling tournaments because they wont pony up the cash to average 170 because centers are too stubborn to put a decent amount of oil volume on the lanes. Centers are putting out close-your-eyes easy shots and having their bowlers average 210+ and then putting out half the volume at tournaments and then they average 170. Then they want to know why tournament participation is declining. Hmmmmmmm..........I wonder why.
First, I can not bowl. Second, I can bowl well enough to take my hand out of the ball, reduce the axis tilt, and keep the ball in play. If you are used to doing nothing but grabbing it at the bottom, that is your problem, not a lack of oil.
Have you ever wondered why Norm Duke can play up 5 or 10 when everyone else is inside 20? Granted, he is talented beyond compare. Part of the talent includes his ability to do all of the above, and at the same time manage ball speed to carry.
So, learn how to bowl better, and complain less.
+1000, and totally what the topic is all about. We all know(at least myself anyways) that we need to get better, its not about that at all. But, we arent Norm Duke either, and honestly noone on this board has the skills he has even at his age, so that is a useless comparison.
The problem is consistent at almost every tournament I go to- 99% of the bowlers participating use way too much ball on patterns that would require less aggressive equipment, and another part of the equation is typically the majority of bowlers out there have consistently bought/or have been sold more and more aggressive equipment, instead of having a more rounded arsenal from most to least aggressive stuff.
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I don't ever want to come across like I havent done any of this, if anything it took me till the better part of last season to realize it! Hence the reason I said we all know we need to get better!
I know I still have a ton to learn, and I have been bowling 25+ years...seen alot of changes, and its gotten to a point now that there are so many variables to put together to score well, especially in tournament settings. It has gotten to a point where in some cases it is more difficult to put it all together for me now than it was say 15 years ago, the game was much simpler then, a couple options for balls, relying on physical skill more than anything.
But in regards to stubborness, we all are guilty of falling into thinking we gotta have the latest hook monster at some point. Even here in league last year, for the better part of the season I got the most use out of a AMF Smoke, and had my choice of where to play-granted it was league but that lets you know right there our volume was pretty low. You can use upper end stuff if you like, but the shot wont last long, id rather ball down and take care of what little shot I had, spread my scoring over 3 games as opposed to the opposite, which was score big first game, then struggle next 2 lmao...
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Either way in the end it is the bowler's shortcoming. You shoot 450 on a "dry shot" grabbing the ball at the bottom, using the strongest hookmonster out and playing up ten all three games refusing to move your eyes or your feet. You then whine and moan because they did not put enough oil out for you. :'( No, it's. not about your lack of skill. It's all about the lane preparation and a not enough oil being put out. ;)
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Either way in the end it is the bowler's shortcoming. You shoot 450 on a "dry shot" grabbing the ball at the bottom, using the strongest hookmonster out and playing up ten all three games refusing to move your eyes or your feet. You then whine and moan because they did not put enough oil out for you. :'( No, it's. not about your lack of skill. It's all about the lane preparation and a not enough oil being put out. ;)
Oh your right, the same way most gripe and moan when centers actually do put oil out and they can't get their $200 ball to wrinkle because they only have 2 revs and a cloud of dust....yeah it does fall strictly on the bowler huh? What was I thinking lmao...
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I admit I made a mistake in not taking my Slingshot along to the tournament, but when I shot the week before I shot the bulk of the games minors and team using my 503C and the team was on the second shift following doubles and singles.
I ended up throwing my 300C during most of the night shift last Saturday for the 700 tournament. I could not generate enough ball speed last Saturday due to shoulder issues to compensate the way I normally would due to issues with my shoulder.
Not all bowlers buy the HOOK in a Box, there are several of us out there that are content to throw entry or mid level equipment. I agree I am no where as talented as Norm Duke and he can play lines that most of us and most pros just are not capable of playing the twig on conditions like Norm (it is an area that I am working on but have not become comfortable with).
Enjoy bowling and work on not being quite so critical of those of us who you don't know and have never seen bowl.
Have a good day!
Mark
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Every week whether a league or tournament is a learning experience. The main thing is to gather what you have learned so you dont make the same mistake twice. If you have an arsenal of equipment, always take something for all conditions just to make sure you are prepared for something unexpected. Alot of times, ball reaction can be dictated by who is in front of you providing that is the format. Thats the lesson I learned at State last weekend. I heard the shot was 33 feet. However, we were the second squad and think there were people using plastic or urethane because the shot in the middle of the lane played really tight. I started with a Ebonite Black Ice playing around 15 out to 7-8. Thing is if I missed in and hit closer to 17, I barely hit the headpin and left the 2-4-5 due to some carrydown. Thankfully I had something a little more aggressive where I could play in there and ended up shooting 692 in Singles. I expected alot of hook from the start but it wasnt there. Standing left and playing 5th arrow did not occur for me until about the 5th game which was game 2 of doubles.
I admit I made a mistake in not taking my Slingshot along to the tournament, but when I shot the week before I shot the bulk of the games minors and team using my 503C and the team was on the second shift following doubles and singles.
I ended up throwing my 300C during most of the night shift last Saturday for the 700 tournament. I could not generate enough ball speed last Saturday due to shoulder issues to compensate the way I normally would due to issues with my shoulder.
Not all bowlers buy the HOOK in a Box, there are several of us out there that are content to throw entry or mid level equipment. I agree I am no where as talented as Norm Duke and he can play lines that most of us and most pros just are not capable of playing the twig on conditions like Norm (it is an area that I am working on but have not become comfortable with).
Enjoy bowling and work on not being quite so critical of those of us who you don't know and have never seen bowl.
Have a good day!
Mark
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Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but the PBA isn't putting out a flood....they just know how to bowl better. They don't throw it into the floor....It's like the guys that try to say professional golfers hit it further because they use different balls. No they are just better athletes and can hit the ball harder....
From my experience bowling on the patterns over the years there is actually LESS volume in the middle on a PBA pattern than on the house walls.
The reality is that we're incredibly spoiled....with the integration of combo strip/oil machines there is no need to learn how to get the ball down the lane anymore. Now with every league you're given a puddle to dump the ball into. Walk around your local competitive league and pay attention to how the bowlers get the ball onto the lane. The majority dump it and spin it to the right, which is fantastic on house china, but absolutely horrible when the heads begin to go at all. Now when we go to a tournament that requires projection and shotmaking....everyone is totally screwed and whining.
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I am going to throw something back at cha. You being one of the biggest advocates of people using the right equipment on the right condition; not to mention that scoring is condusive to the right "match up"; you are going to say that if the PBA guys were bowling on a short, low volume pattern, that they can still score just because of change of release? As you know, I am up there in rev rate somewhere between Rash and Belmo and I have a hard time getting a entry level ball to push at times. Granted I am slightly rev dominate now as compared to 10 years ago, but I did say entry level ball. When I watch Sean Rash with his borderline 500 rpm rev rate struggle to get the ball to read the lane (I can tell the difference between a ball burning up and a ball not getting started/reading the pattern), that there isnt a decent volume of oil; not to mention he was using Brunswicks high end balls? Rash doesnt throw the ball all that fast; would say he is fairly matched with rev rate to ball speed, and yet he struggled with his look on tv once he moved inside. I would be willing to bet that what I encountered on Thursday Nights this year was less volume than what the PBA was using this year, depending on which pattern was laid out. Nobody is saying that the PBA lays out a heavy volume 45 foot pattern. But needless to say there is plenty out there when even Belmo and Osku are using high end stuff.
My biggest argument, is that local centers put out dead easy shots and have half their bowlers averaging "scratch" and then when it comes tournament time, and handicap tournaments no less, they lessen the volume and/or shorten the pattern, in most cases. If this is the case, then why do the "scratch" bowlers even bother showing up knowing they have to shoot almost 800 each set to win on a pattern that is not condusive to those scores? What the USBC should do, is tell centers that until they use a named pattern, whether it be one of the USBC patterns or Kegel patterns, then the centers dont get certified for sanctioned play. What I hate in the sport, is that centers put patterns out where guys can average 230-240 so they think they really are that good and then when they bowl something like the USBC Tournament and shoot 1600-1700, it is the tournaments fault.
When I bowled the tournament in Dacula a couple months ago, they used the Kegel Middle of the Road pattern. Scores were fair and competitive. It did not take a 250 average to win nor did it take even to win. They guy that won the tournament was a tweener, second place was a high rev rate player and third place was another tweener. Everyone agreed it was a well run tournament and a fair shot because everyone could play on it; not just crankers and not just low rev players.
What I would like to see on the PBA, is one week they put down a 45 foot pattern and another week they put down a 32-34 foot pattern with low volume and see how they fare and I am not talking about the Plastic Ball Championship either. Since you say that we should learn how to make a ball push, then what is the secret when the patterns are shorter and volumes are less?
Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but the PBA isn't putting out a flood....they just know how to bowl better. They don't throw it into the floor....It's like the guys that try to say professional golfers hit it further because they use different balls. No they are just better athletes and can hit the ball harder....
From my experience bowling on the patterns over the years there is actually LESS volume in the middle on a PBA pattern than on the house walls.
The reality is that we're incredibly spoiled....with the integration of combo strip/oil machines there is no need to learn how to get the ball down the lane anymore. Now with every league you're given a puddle to dump the ball into. Walk around your local competitive league and pay attention to how the bowlers get the ball onto the lane. The majority dump it and spin it to the right, which is fantastic on house china, but absolutely horrible when the heads begin to go at all. Now when we go to a tournament that requires projection and shotmaking....everyone is totally screwed and whining.
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Great questions....
Surface...surface...surface....
Bowling on shorter patterns isn't about getting the ball to "push" down the lane. Anything over 20 units will allow a reactive ball to hydroplane down the lane. The issue is getting it to properly read the backend part of the lane once it gets there.
If you try to throw low end stuff when the backends are hooking it makes your motion worse. The ball is trying to slide slide slide as far as it can, and then when it gets off of the oil it releases its stored energy all at one time and makes an incredibly uncontrollable motion. This is why if you watched the PBA Cheetah show on Xtra Frame you would have seen PDW throwing a Modern Marvel at box finish on a 35 foot pattern. I would also challenge you to find the Cheetah shows over the years and see what balls they are throwing...mostly balls that bleed energy and roll. You don't see them drilling many Tornadoes, Tropical Breezes, Freezes, etc and throwing them on Viper and Cheetah.
The reason Sean's ball was not hooking down the lane is that it WAS burning up. You saw the Storm guys making plenty of motion downlane with Marvel Pearls, Victory Roads, and Critical Theories, which are much weaker than a Solid Nexus.
There is a myth that weak balls push further down the lane all of the time. If you throw a Tornado and a Nexus Solid on Cheetah...they will probably end up in about the same place downlane. Both balls will go sideways at the 35' mark, there is nothing magic about the weaker core when there is that much friction. Weaker balls are for when the HEADS burn up, they glide through the dirt a little better and store more for when they actually encounter the truly bare part of the lane.
Understanding ball motion is critically important in today's game...and watching it on league walls where you have 90 units at the 15 board and 4 units at the 7 board does not show any sort of true motion. In those environments everything bounces and hooks...and when you have a short pattern where there is 25 feet of backend....less is more.
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Notice them not using weak stuff...bleeding energy is vital when the backends are strong.
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Good stuff Russell. I run a WTBA Pattern tournament once a month and I am amazed at how people feel they need to attack a pattern. I feel I get more frustrated watching than they do bowling. They go into the tournament with zero preparation and get frustrated to the point of not wanting to participate again. This is even after I send out ways of attacking the pattern with the pattern for the month.
It may be a short pattern where as you stated, balls that burn energy early will be of use and yet 75% of the bowlers are trying to swing Frantics or Nanos.
Those who watch the TV matches as a measuring stick to how the shot will play in a hometown tournament or league need to watch a PBA tournament as the shifts progress to get a true understanding of how the lanes most likely will play. Not take the TV progression as the normal.
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One thing folks forget about Sean Rash, and even he himself said multiple times on tv this year, when he gets fast he throws the ball through his breakpoint. So to sit here and say that his ball wasnt hooking just because it was burning up, we arent 100% sure of that.
Add to that, I trust Sean's ball rep-Chuck Gardner, to put the best ball for that situation in Sean's hands, trust me when I tell you from experience that Chuck knows way more about ball motion, surfaces etc. at the pro level than most on here.
Not saying Sean's ball wasn't burning up, but when you take a step back from it, only Chuck and Sean really have a valid opinion on wether it truly was the ball burning up, or wether Sean was throwing it through his breakpoint with poor shots....
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I can see that. But once again, this is about volume; not just length of pattern. I dont see how Rash can use higher end stuff on a 35 foot pattern unless there was quite a bit of volume up front. If not, then he is making moves left every 3-4 frames because he is soaking up what little volume there is. If you remember years ago, Mika shot 300 on Cheetah using an Ebonite Stinger Low Flare.
Notice them not using weak stuff...bleeding energy is vital when the backends are strong.
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Thats why I dont think his ball was burning up. He did not look fast at all. When he tried to play 18ish out to 10-12, his ball read the midlane too quickly and when he moved into 22ish, the ball never got started. Not sure which patterns they were but it was a couple different shows where this happened. Another reason I dont think his ball was burning up was because Belmo was just as deep and getting 10s slapped out and throwing messengers all while using higher end stuff as well.
Russell.....I understand surfaces and what they are for. I am just saying that what I saw at State; if I threw anything higher end I would have been shooting alot of 3 counts. I had one shot where I was playing around 25 at S/D house and I did not project the ball at all. The result was hitting the 4-7 in the face and getting a 5 count. The ball never got right of 27-28. On the spare ball, I used the same ball and projected it better, hit my spot, and hit the 1-3 in the face and made the spare.
BTW......Thanks to all of you for the intelligent discussion. Kind of nice to be able to have one without the flaming attitudes.
One thing folks forget about Sean Rash, and even he himself said multiple times on tv this year, when he gets fast he throws the ball through his breakpoint. So to sit here and say that his ball wasnt hooking just because it was burning up, we arent 100% sure of that.
Add to that, I trust Sean's ball rep-Chuck Gardner, to put the best ball for that situation in Sean's hands, trust me when I tell you from experience that Chuck knows way more about ball motion, surfaces etc. at the pro level than most on here.
Not saying Sean's ball wasn't burning up, but when you take a step back from it, only Chuck and Sean really have a valid opinion on wether it truly was the ball burning up, or wether Sean was throwing it through his breakpoint with poor shots....
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Yeah Steven I know the state tourneys are lacking in head oil. I don't think there is much to do other then fling it with something shiny and hope. I guess I was just referring more to the issues raised by some others on shorter patterns. You're right Cheetah does have some volume up front, but there is so much backend that when it burns up you just slowly ball down, or just chase it left.
I want to be clear and say that I am not questioning Chuck's judgment. I know Chuck and you're right his knowledge of ball motion is off the charts. It appeared to me that the ball was using too much energy in the midlane (but Sean could have been throwing it through the break). I can see a scenario where Sean had a look all week with a certain ball and wanted to try and make it fit even though the TV pairs were nothing like the lanes at South Pointe.
I again wouldn't question Chuck's judgment....if there was one call I could make for a ball motion question he would be it.
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Yeah Steven I know the state tourneys are lacking in head oil. I don't think there is much to do other then fling it with something shiny and hope. I guess I was just referring more to the issues raised by some others on shorter patterns. You're right Cheetah does have some volume up front, but there is so much backend that when it burns up you just slowly ball down, or just chase it left.
I want to be clear and say that I am not questioning Chuck's judgment. I know Chuck and you're right his knowledge of ball motion is off the charts. It appeared to me that the ball was using too much energy in the midlane (but Sean could have been throwing it through the break). I can see a scenario where Sean had a look all week with a certain ball and wanted to try and make it fit even though the TV pairs were nothing like the lanes at South Pointe.
I again wouldn't question Chuck's judgment....if there was one call I could make for a ball motion question he would be it.
As for state and local tournaments, the last few years our state association has put out Usbc white two years ago, and blue this year, and the last two years we have seen a steady decline each year for not just the scratch side but the handicap side as well. Most who have went that I talked too have said that each year so far has played worse and worse...
But it doesnt stop there, even at my home center, there have been several scratch and handicap tournaments just in the past few months where the tournament directors have put out numerous shots, PBA, Kegel what have you, and the laneman(who happend to be bowling on a league with me) tell me later that week that the TD and manager cut the volumes....and to add to that at other centers, td's have been taking existing pba patterns and modifying them as well smh...all the while they wonder why entries are declining, they post a shot as cheetah, yet it plays nothing like Cheetah, and that goes for other patterns as well.
AS for Cheetah, I have seen several different approaches to Cheetah, from what you said Russell-using aggressive gear, but I have found in the past balls like an AMF smoke worked well for me before I joined Seismic staff.
I echo TwoHand, its great to have a discussion and not have attitudes even though our opinions differ, as I have alot of respect for others that get on here and are willing to share what they see and know. What I find is most intriguing is how lanes differ from say my area, as opposed to other areas, as well as what I term dry may be oily in some areas-even though thats hard to imagine for me!