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Author Topic: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball  (Read 12474 times)

Berreez

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Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« on: December 11, 2003, 03:24:12 PM »
Palming the ball.

In another thread it was mentioned that you MUST use fingers when throwing the ball to count for a legal delivery.

I did a quick search in the rule book but couldn't find what I was looking for.

So, what is the rule on delivering the ball? Can the ball be palmed without the thumb or any fingers in the ball? If not, how many fingers must be used? I know of a guy who bowls without the thumb or fingers. If there is a finger(s) requirement, then taking out your ring finger or middle finger would be illegal when shooting at spares.

If someone could tell me the chapter and page I would appreciate it.
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My wrist brace is just like my RADAR detector, I really don't need it but it sure makes me feel better when I have it on.
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bennett

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2003, 08:27:23 AM »
What I don't understand is that ABC rules state that you must use either your right hand or left hand when you bowl (and you must stick with it).  I know of 2 kids on my league that throw thumbless but they have to use 2 hands to deliver the ball.  They can't get revs any other way for strikes so they bowl this way.  I feel using 2 hands should be illegal when there is a rule that states you must use on or the other.  BTW, sometimes they use only one hand when the shoot spares to make it go straight.  So, he is using BOTH his right and left hand upon delivery but using his right hand on certain spares.  

The bad thing about bowling this way is that if you ever want to get instruction, how does one help you?
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.  


Edited on 12/12/2003 9:27 AM
I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.  

iommifan

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2003, 08:42:11 AM »
call the ABC. They have a number in the book and whenever I have called them they have been more than helpful

rkaycom

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2003, 08:45:32 AM »
The rule as I see it is that you must bowl with your fingers, otherwise you could just bowl the ball down there anyway with the core in all different positions...

I have no idea what i just said

Anywayz look at this guy, His name is Jason Belmonte and at this present time hes the 3rd best bowler in Australia, he bowls with two hands and only uses his fingers.

NOTE: Its not a very good strike but its the newer, better quality video

http://www.totalbowling.com.au/www/live/2003brunswickcup/multimedia/Jason_Belmonte.MPG
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BC60

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2003, 09:46:19 AM »
I think that ABC has rule that says 5 holes max for gripping purposes and 1 balance hole.  If the bowler is using a normally drilled ball with 3 finger/thumb holes and the bowler is palming the ball, wouldn't this violate the rule since he isn't using any of the drilled holes for gripping purposes?

Berreez

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2003, 10:12:41 AM »
quote:
I think that ABC has rule that says 5 holes max for gripping purposes and 1 balance hole. If the bowler is using a normally drilled ball with 3 finger/thumb holes and the bowler is palming the ball, wouldn't this violate the rule since he isn't using any of the drilled holes for gripping purposes?  


I sent an e-mail to ABC about this today.

So again, it states the number of "gripping" holes allowed but nothing about having to use them. If we interpret the rule they way the above quote, then removing a finger to pickup a spare would allow be illegal.

DOES ANYONE KNOW...
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My wrist brace is just like my RADAR detector, I really don't need it but it sure makes me feel better when I have it on.
(Airborne Army 1SG all the way)

cgilyeat

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2003, 10:15:23 AM »
Actually you can have a total of 12 holes in the ball,thumb, 4 fingers, a vent hole for each of those, a weight hole, and a mill hole for hardess verification.  As for not using the thumb to deliver the ball, I think (and I may be wrong), IF there is a thumb hole, it must be located where it can be used.  There are no requirement to actually use it to deliver the ball, and  you can have a ball without a thumbhole as long as the weights are within spec.

jimsey

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2003, 10:35:58 AM »
As a rep for our local association, I attend the ABC national convention every year.  There is always a rules seminar that discusses rules interpretations and equipment specifications that may not be directly covered in the rules book.  

The issue of two handed bowling and/or fingerless/thumbless bowling has been discussed in detail.  Neither is illegal.  However there are restrictions.  In  order for a ball to comply with the static weight requirements (max top/side/finger/thumb weights) a ball needs to have a grip center.  For most balls it is defined by where the finger and thumb holes have been drilled.  In an undrilled ball, the bowler defines the area by where the ball is placed in his bowling hand (ie label in center of grip etc.) When bowling two handed, the position of the dominant or release hand determines the center of the grip.  The release hand is generally the right hand when delivering the ball from the right side of the body.  That delivery needs to executed from the same side of the body for the entire competition.

Confused yet, there's more!!!   In a drilled ball, the bowler may palm the ball but needs to position in his hand so that the finger cover or are in the direction of the finger holes and the base of the palm is oriented over the thumb hole.  If the holes are drilled for gripping purposes, they define the center of the grip and the static weights are measured from that location.  It is legal to deliver a ball without using the grips, however the ball needs to be oriented the same way in the hand for each delivery.

By the way, the maximum number of "holes" in a bowling ball is 12.  One for each finger(5), a vent hole for each finger hole(5 more), a balance hole, and a mill of inspection hole normally used to test coverstock hardness in PBA events.
Hope some of this helps.

Berreez

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2003, 10:44:23 AM »
jimsey

Thanks, goes to show you that the "rules" need to be explained in more detail.
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My wrist brace is just like my RADAR detector, I really don't need it but it sure makes me feel better when I have it on.
(Airborne Army 1SG all the way)

jimsey

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2003, 12:02:20 PM »
Berreez

I don't know.  If all the rules were written out in full detail, we'd be hauling around 10 volumes of encyclodias instead of rule books.  I can't even imagine what would happen if they included every possibility that covers every potential infraction or specification.  I already have issues with some of the rules that have no associated penalties or solutions.  Good question though.

Jim

Tex

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2003, 09:41:11 PM »
JImsey, Is the interpretation in writing or verbal at the convention? I was asked a similar question this weekend. One of the bowlers in our travel league questioned the actions of a bowler in his regular league. What the guy does is put his fingers in the ball, but with the thumb hole facing away from him. I told him from my interpretations that it is illegal, but a formal local president said he felt the same, but if it was not in writing was not inforcible. Which was a good point. I am going to do some reading myself on this one.

Berreez

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2003, 06:08:52 AM »
Here is reply I received from ABC:

 
quote:
This is in reference to your email dated 12/12/03.
>
> ABC/WIBC does not have a rule requiring all holes drilled in a ball to
> be used.  You can reference Chapter VI Bowling Ball - Weight, Size,
> Markings, and Holes (1).  However, any holes not used by the bowlers and
> uncovered become balance holes.  The bowling ball is only permitted to
> have one hole in the ball uncovered.  So if he has a weight hole plus
> leaves his thumb hole is uncovered by his hand the ball would become
> non-compliant.>
> Also, the matter in which the ball is thrown must meet ABC/WIBC
> specifications.  
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> Gary Brown
> Rules Staff
 


Interesting????
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My wrist brace is just like my RADAR detector, I really don't need it but it sure makes me feel better when I have it on.
(Airborne Army 1SG all the way)

T-GOD

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2003, 09:35:50 AM »
OK, here's what I think is the correct answer.

If a ball has no holes, it still must meet ABC specs for side, figer and top. Since there are no holes to orient where the measurement for weighing must take place, then it must weigh up leagal from anywhere on the ball.

The only way for that to happen is for the ball to start with no more than 1 oz. top weight. If the ball has more than 1 oz. of top weight, then it will weigh up to have more than 1 oz. of finger or side weight when weighed from certain locations.

Therefore, a ball with 1 oz. or less of top weight, but more than 1 oz. of bottom weight, to start, will weigh up legal from any location on the ball.

You can send this to the ABC..!! =:^D

jimsey

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2003, 09:42:34 AM »
Berreez

Thanx for the update.  Although the ABC rules committee response answers the general question on holes and their explanation of covering an unused hole resolves the issue of centering the grip or as in Tex's example reversing the grip, the use of an undrilled ball or a ball with only finger holes is not addressed.  You could also assume from the response that if the bowler reverses his grip, the thumbhole now becomes the weight hole if no other hole exists.  I would assume that you would have to recheck the static balance of the ball with the thumbhole above the fingers.

Tex

Yes, unfortunately it was a verbal response in a rules seminar after a lengthy discussion covering the general subject.  I know it was not written in the general playing rules but they did reference an equipment and specification manual that I have never seen.  It seems that the only way to enforce the interpretation is to file a protest when the situation arises and go through the appeal process.  I'll see if I can find info on the equipment and specs manual.  Let me know if you find anything in your research.

jimsey

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Re: Another Rules Question - Palming the Ball
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2003, 09:55:09 AM »
t-god
I think you are exactly correct.  In an undrilled ball with less than 1 oz of topweight, no matter where you "palm" it, the ball is in static balance.  Changing the location of the grip would have little of no effect on the balance of the ball.