Author Topic: Food for thought, for bowling manufacturers (Read 2645 times)

icefiction · « **on:** August 28, 2011, 08:28:43 AM »

I know that a lot of money is spent on research, and most of it seems to be in cover stock technology (at least from the consumer point of view); I think it would be a pretty wide range agreement from the better bowlers, that we don't look for hook from new products, but we are more interested in more carry. I had a long discussion with my friend, both of us have been working in shops since our teenage years, and i told him that " we used to drill new balls to help get to the pocket, now we drill new balls to try and carry better." I think there is a whole lot of good behind that statement, anyone can hit the pocket 36 times a night with any ball on the market right now, the technology has simply made things that easy, but carrying those 36 times is where technology should be pushed towards, in my opinion if you as a company can make a claim that your new ball will carry better than you will get a lot more sales from a wider range of bowlers.

Edited by icefiction on 8/28/2011 at 6:01 PM

JustRico · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:09:02 PM »

There are too many variables that lead to carry or having the ball enter the pins properly to allow for proper pin carry. Because of a bowler's attributes, a manufacturer cannot say ball will carry more or differently than another. Bowling balls are designed for different conditions and it is up to the bowler to use the right 'tool' on the correct condition. Similar to golf clubs are designed to do different things as well as distances. Many golf club manufacturers do attest this driver hits the ball farther than another but that is relevant to how hot the face is or the MOI. But it is all dependant on the golfer's swing speed also. You can't say this driver will allow you hit the ball 300 yds no matter what. That sounds like what you are asking for. This certain ball will carry more than another.

Hope this makes sense

The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.

icefiction · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:20:21 PM »

I completely agree with what you are saying, but companies have no problem making those kind of claims about their balls hooking ability in comparison to other products they have produced. So i feel if they are able to make that leap, the leap to better carry is the same given the majority of the variables are the same.

JustRico · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:27:50 PM »

Comparing how much a bowling ball 'hooks' is compariable to how far a driver can hit a golf ball....they are all predicated on a persons abilities. 'Hook' is also a misperception as well as many bowlers do not truly or completely understand what 'hook' means. Bowlers equate 'hook' to what the bowling ball does at 40 ft...hook is derived as any deviation from a straight line. In a bowlers mind or eye it when they see it change direction. Similar in a driver they can boast that the club goes longer but what most golfer needs is one that goes straighter or easier to control. Similar in bowling balls. You mentioned about not drilling new bowling balls because you stopped seeing true differences in a sense but I bet you had bowling balls that struck more even though they seemed to react similar. You may say a bowling ball hits harder than another due to COR but again there are too many variables which dictate whether a shot will carry or not.

The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.

icefiction · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2011, 06:35:59 PM »

I agree with what you are saying, but I guess my real question/point is that given the variables that surround all events in bowling a strike, why not throw some time and money into researching pin carry versus bowling ball technology. It seems like such an obvious marketing tool and something would benefit more bowlers, rather than the old dead horse of more hook.

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2011, 01:12:23 AM »

Carry (or the lack thereof) is not the actual problem - it is just the symptom or result of ever-aggressive covers that offer SO much traction that we a) do not need mechanical grip from particle anymore and b) that you NEED long and high oil volumes to use such a ball at all.

IMHO, one side the bowling industry is leading itself ad absurdum with this technical development, esp. when you see that oil volumes for average league bowlers and even in serious tournaments become less and less. Where does it lead?

On the other side, there are many player egos involved which cling to the equation "expensive ball = big hook = big numbers". I think that this is one of the fundamental misconceptions bowling as a sport is currently suffering from, and, IMHO, pro shops are a part of the problem when selling is more important than giving customers advice - concerning equipment and (even more important) coaching. I wish there was more consciousness for proper execution than ball bling - in many cases, very simple and harmless balls suffice on today's conditions. PBA and true sport patterns are something different, this gap between real life and "as seen on TV" is almost absurd.

Besides, carry is no ball property, rather the result of proper execution and a good ball reaction. Any ball can and will carry - if it used on the proper condition and in a more or less educated way. Selling a ball with this claim is IMHO ridiculous, even more than the traditional and rather funny "hooks more" or "has more back end".

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2011, 01:34:21 AM »

Huh?

Are you really asking what I think you are asking? You really want manufacturers to do studies into how to get a ball to carry more strikes? Isn't that what they've been doing for almost the last 20 yrs?

Even if they COULD make a ball that carried every shot, why would we want that?

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2011, 02:39:49 AM »

The Bowling Pariah wrote on 29.08.2011 1:34 AM:
Even if they COULD make a ball that carried every shot, why would we want that?

Because "we" want the easy way, right out of the box. Adjustments or lane intelligence are just over-rated. "Get the ball that does it all!"

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #8 on:** August 29, 2011, 11:08:18 AM »

Dizzy,

I saw this once, and thought it was funny.

<Billy Mays ON>

It's new, it's improved, and WOW, it's AMAZING. The all new and improved WONDER BALL. It slices, it dices, it hooks on ANYTHING!

It SLICES through those pins, DICES those racks, and works on anything from gravel to TEFLON!

Got dry? This baby goes straight as an arrow. Got oil? This thing takes a left turn on ICE, it's INCREDIBLE.

Due to a new formula that NOBODY ELSE HAS, we've been able to create the most fantastic ball ever. No matter WHAT the condition, this ball is the answer. Works just as well at 50 grit as it does 50,000 grit, AND MAN, THIS THING HITS LIKE A RUNAWAY FREIGHT TRAIN!

But wait, theres MORE! Order yous today, and we'll throw in a matching pair of shoelaces and an unbreakable ACE comb! Now you can not only bowl in style, but you can look well groomed while doing it. Imagine the looks you'll get when you're bowling with your new WONDER BALL!

<Billy Mays OFF>

Sounds like something Icefiction might be interested in.

dizzyfugu wrote on 8/29/2011 2:39 AM:

The Bowling Pariah wrote on 29.08.2011 1:34 AM:

Even if they COULD make a ball that carried every shot, why would we want that?
Because "we" want the easy way, right out of the box. Adjustments or lane intelligence are just over-rated. "Get the ball that does it all!"

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2011, 11:22:10 AM »

I kinda see where the OP is going with this... Right now, every ball is marketed to every bowler. I guess the assumption is that if you can get a hook monster to move with even the limpest wristed fluffer around, then anyone can adapt and get it to the pocket to strike. However, the focus is on HOOK, and sometimes HOOK SHAPE. What is missing is the bowler's imput. Take any ball on the market, and put it in the hands of a fluffer, sroker, tweener, and a cranker. You'll get 4 different reactions from the ball, whether it's a hook monster or a spare ball. Now then, what if the manufacturers started matching cores with covers to fit a specific release type on a specific condition? Think about it, the needs of each release are vastly different. If the ball were already set up from factory for a specific release type on a specific lane condition, then all the driller is doing is finely tweaking the ball to perfectly match the bowler. Carry should, in theory, increase.

Granted, it is reasonable to say a good driller will be able to do this at the press, but how many truly good drillers are there out there in relation to bad or just decent drillers. Having the ball set up from factory for specific release types/lane conditions just makes it that much easier for the masses of non-competitive bowlers to choose the right ball and get a better end product from their game with a simpler drilling - because these are the bowlers that will (for the most part) NOT be getting the good drillers. Make the ball pre-set for delivery types/oil conditions (even a novice can understand this relatively easily), thus making a simple non-technical drill more effective (so even the bad drillers can give their bowlers a good product). Again, it's targeting the masses, not the top-tier guys.

9~ Internet Tough Guy and
Cyberspace Sheep Lover

icefiction · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2011, 06:29:41 PM »

I appreciate the feedback but I think most are looking at this a little too deeply than I intended. I was merely making the suggestion or inquiry as to why companies choose the marketing strategy of More Hook, to keep harping on instead of what seems like a much more attractive idea of Better Carry? To go with that I am curious why there are not these in depth studies on core and cover technology and its affect on pin carry, as we are seeing some much more in depth studies on cover chemistry.

On a personal note, I am not suggesting people should want it made easy, if I had my way everyone would be using the same ball that weighs the same exact weight, with the same exact core and cover; that's equality where talent would shine through. Every baseball in the MLB is exactly the same so why not every bowling ball.

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2011, 09:36:39 PM »

Now you're talking! I would like everybody to use a somewhat standardized ball as well. We both know that ain't happening though.

Perhaps I did look for more than was there. If so, I apologize for misunderstanding your question. And, as for advertising a better carry, didn't lane#1 use to claim they had a 20% better carry than the competition? If I remember correctly, they were laughed at and made fun of because of that claim.

Maybe that's why more people don't market their stuff that way?

icefiction wrote on 8/29/2011 6:29 PM:
I appreciate the feedback but I think most are looking at this a little too deeply than I intended. I was merely making the suggestion or inquiry as to why companies choose the marketing strategy of More Hook, to keep harping on instead of what seems like a much more attractive idea of Better Carry? To go with that I am curious why there are not these in depth studies on core and cover technology and its affect on pin carry, as we are seeing some much more in depth studies on cover chemistry.

On a personal note, I am not suggesting people should want it made easy, if I had my way everyone would be using the same ball that weighs the same exact weight, with the same exact core and cover; that's equality where talent would shine through. Every baseball in the MLB is exactly the same so why not every bowling ball.

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2011, 02:00:10 AM »

Haha, great. Is it from Lane #1's home page?

But it IS the horrible truth. It' like the next washing detergent, washing "whiter than white". Where does BIGGERBETTTERFASTERMOOOOORE! lead?

When I see icefiction quotation "we used to drill new balls to help get to the pocket, now we drill new balls to try and carry better.", it just shows how ridiculous bowling has become - when you actually have to think about making a ball playable at all (on those conditions 95+% of average bowlers frequently encounter) instead of trying to conquer what's out there. The big hook is no more an issue, rather the delicate "edge" between (theoretical) high performance and rubbish (in the players' hands).

The Bowling Pariah wrote on 29.08.2011 11:08 AM:

Dizzy,

I saw this once, and thought it was funny.

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

batbowler · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:16:57 AM »

I always thought that your hard work and dedication was what made the ball better, my mistake!!!! If everybody bought a ball that struck everytime regardless of ability, where does that lead? Everybody shoots 900 every week and averages 300, then why bowl? Matching up the correct ball with the given lane condition, with the proper layout for the bowler. One ball that won't strike for one bowler may be a gold mine in another persons hands because of better match up!!! The manufacturers are producing better bowling equipment all the time, but it's up to the ball driller and bowler to make the proper decision on what ball to use when and the correct layout for the bowlers pap, axis rotation, tilt, revs, etc... Just my $.02, Bruce

Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will do some "Damn Good Bowling", be a "DV8" and not turn from it, besides bowling starts with a Big B!

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.

Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25 leverage drilling!

http://www.damngoodbowling.com/catalog

http://www.brunswickbowling.com/products
red>

spmcgivern · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:28:27 AM »

Isn't this where the game is going though. With the new Blueprint from Ebonite, they can now match a ball to a bowler depending on the shot they bowl on.

My impression of Blueprint is this:

1. Input ball

2. Input drilling

3. Input bowler stats

4. Input shot and lanebed

5. Get results

But if this is not the way it works, I still can't see why it can't. Eventually technology available to the pro shop owner will allow them to pick the right ball based on the conditions the bowler faces or the conditions he/she wants the ball for.

Ultimately it comes down to what the bowler wants versus what they need. People want hook and so that is what the markets push. Once the bowler wants carry and specific performance, then the market will adjust and push that.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Author Topic: Food for thought, for bowling manufacturers (Read 2645 times)

icefiction

Food for thought, for bowling manufacturers

JustRico

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icefiction

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JustRico

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icefiction

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dizzyfugu

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The Bowling Pariah

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dizzyfugu

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The Bowling Pariah

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9andaWiggle

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icefiction

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The Bowling Pariah

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dizzyfugu

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batbowler

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spmcgivern

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