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Author Topic: For you guys who both bowl and golf  (Read 7852 times)

avabob

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For you guys who both bowl and golf
« on: May 05, 2014, 03:28:16 PM »
Does anyone but me find it humorous that so many message board posters complain about technology ruining bowling, and insist on comparing scoring from 1975 to today, yet we never hear anyone arguing that golfer should go back and have a persimmon driver only golf tournament. 

If you are my age and have done both for any length of time you know that there is as much difference between a persimmon driver circa 1975, and the 460 cc monsters of today as their is between my old yellow dot, and my Mastermind.

 

Strapper_Squared

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 09:13:06 PM »
If I had to use a persimmon driver, my golf scores would begin to approach my bowling scores.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 10:24:17 PM »
Most of my accomplishments in Golf were performed with a Ben Hogan Laminate driver.  2 degree open face.  The number of players that used those things and played incredible golf with them is huge.  If you could hit the dime sized spot on them it really was very cooperative!  I use my natural right hand at golf.

I can till hit that thing right were I want to. 

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS extra yardage comes from todays 46 inch drivers but who needs it!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 09:56:53 AM »
The point is the technology in golf has allowed the players to take advantage of being bigger and stronger with more aggressive swings because there is more margin of error on the clubface.  Swing an old persimmon driver at 110 mph club head speed, and you would get plenty of distance with it too, but the tiniest mis hit puts the ball in the next county.

I hate to get into scoring comparisons between the two sports, because while there are so many things that are comparable there are many things that are not.  Technology is one thing that is comparable between the two.  While a larger proportion of bowlers than golfers may be able to take advantage of those advances it does not make the advances any less significant.

trash heap

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 10:06:24 AM »
Talkin' Trash!

dR3w

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 05:03:23 PM »
Does anyone but me find it humorous that so many message board posters complain about technology ruining bowling, and insist on comparing scoring from 1975 to today, yet we never hear anyone arguing that golfer should go back and have a persimmon driver only golf tournament. 

If you are my age and have done both for any length of time you know that there is as much difference between a persimmon driver circa 1975, and the 460 cc monsters of today as their is between my old yellow dot, and my Mastermind.

What do you think a PGA golfer would score on a course with a slope rating of 55?  Think he might complain that it was too easy?

LeeWorley

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 08:31:26 PM »
There are too many differences to compare the sports, but I do know one issue golfers don't have to deal with. Bad shots equaling good results. I am a below average golfer, if I went out with four guys that took golf as seriously as I take bowling and I duck hook my driver off the tee into the trees only to have it ricochet onto the cart path running up the fairway kicking off a rock and landing beside the same guy who split the middle with a gorgeous fade avoiding the bunker, and I did this seven times every round we played together, no matter if they still won by 15 strokes, I bet the entire group would be on a golf message board complaining about how easy golf is becoming.

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2014, 10:17:59 AM »
The big difference between bowling and golf is that good shots can give you bad breaks and bad shots can give you good breaks more frequently in bowling.  This has always been true regardless of lane conditions.  That is the reason that historically top bowling tournaments featured much longer formats, where the breaks had a chance to even out.  I remember getting beat once in a game on a very tough condition where a guy threw 7 brooklyns and beakers at me for 230+.  It happens.
I lost a big match in Vegas a couple of weeks ago where I stoned 3 super solid 10's on the same lane.  I have had my share of breaks go my way too.   

BackToBasics

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2014, 11:31:29 AM »
There of course have been technological advances in both sports but the impact on the actual scoring ability is drastically different. 

Longer, lighter clubs haven't changed the fact that you still need the core of the game to be able to score and that's chipping and putting.  I play with a lot of golfers who can't break 100 and there is no club out there that will change that.   I've also  been playing in plenty of local scratch amateur tournaments for years and most of the guys winning and scoring are using clubs several years old.  Why? Because the new stuff doesn't help them score better.  It still comes down to accuracy, iron play, chipping and putting.

The bowling advances drastically change the scoring ability of all.

dR3w

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2014, 01:25:25 PM »
There of course have been technological advances in both sports but the impact on the actual scoring ability is drastically different. 

Longer, lighter clubs haven't changed the fact that you still need the core of the game to be able to score and that's chipping and putting.  I play with a lot of golfers who can't break 100 and there is no club out there that will change that.   I've also  been playing in plenty of local scratch amateur tournaments for years and most of the guys winning and scoring are using clubs several years old.  Why? Because the new stuff doesn't help them score better.  It still comes down to accuracy, iron play, chipping and putting.

The bowling advances drastically change the scoring ability of all.

In general I agree with most of your points ... but ... technological advances in golf have had a big impact on the sport.  How many times have they lengthened Augusta, or other courses.  PGA guys were and still are hitting wedges into par 5's on their second shots.  Greens are cut short to make putting more difficult. Roughs are grown longer to offer another challenge.  Clubs have cavity backs, and offsets and allow the average Joe golfer to score several shots better by lessening the effect of bad ball strikes.   There are bad swings in golf that score, just like there are bad swings in bowling that score.

I do agree though, that bowling in general is easier ... and technology has caused that.  But if you have ever bowled on flat conditions, you know how tough bowling can be.  Just like in golf, playing from the furthest tees with the trickiest pin placements, can make it tough for golfers, regardless of what state of the art clubs they have in the bag.

Bowling has allowed the ease, because high scoring appeases a lot of bowlers.  I know lots of golf courses that have removed traps, moved up tees and taken down trees amongst other things to make scoring easier ... under the guise of "speeding up play", and making the local golf pros feel better about their scores.

Personally, I don't think there is such a huge divide between the two sports. 

Bad putts go in, and slices sometimes find the best part of the fairway ... just like bad shots in bowling sometimes strike.    But lots of bad shots in bowling don't strike, just like not every drive is striped down the middle of the fairway.  Of course we all remember the times when someone threw a bad shot (or a series of bad shots) to beat us.  Hell our team just lost in the roll-offs when our opponents anchor man, who needed to strike, went Brooklyn in the 10th frame.  But I have also lost golf matches to guys who have chunked the ball all over the course, but did just enough to score decent.

I personally don't believe that the divide that has come through advances in technology are that different.  It is the lane conditions in bowling that are the issue.  You can have the best fitting, most expensive, best matched up drill pattern on your ball, but that isn't gonna make most people shoot 200 on a really tough oil condition.

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2014, 10:38:26 AM »
The mistake people make is comparing golfers who cant crack 100 with bowlers who are averaging 220, even if the latter average is inflated.  The balls and the lane conditions don't help 170 average bowlers anymore than the big drivers help 25 handicap golfers. 

As for scoring, I never could figure out why some truly top average bowlers get so upset when a house shot specialist averages a big number or puts up a lot of award scores.  Most higher average league bowlers have a lot better idea of what they are playing on than we give them credit for.    I don't see PGA pros lashing out when a kid on a high school golf team shoots 59 on a 6000 yard muni. 

Mighty Fish

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2014, 01:19:18 PM »
I don't see PGA pros lashing out when a kid on a high school golf team shoots 59 on a 6000 yard muni.
... but how often does that happen? By comparison, it wasn't that long ago when five different bowlers in an area junior league rolled perfect games (some of them more than once) in a single season.

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2014, 03:48:49 PM »
At least as often as it happens on the PGA tour.  59 is extreme, but I see high school tournaments where there are bunches of 67's or better. 

The point is that just because lanes all look the same doesn't mean that almost all scratch league bowlers don't understand the difference between a house shot and a tournament condition. 

Scores are a lot higher today than the were years ago.  Balls have a lot to do with it.  More consistent synthetic lanes have something to do with it, and bowlers are a lot better than they were 30 years ago, just as golfers, baseball players and every other athlete is better. 

If you don't think bowlers are better, look at what is happening to scores on sports patterns.  They are going up a bunch too.  Second year in a row a team record is set at Nationals.  I bowl almost nothing but sport pattern leagues and tourneys anymore.  I average almost as much on those patterns as house shots.  The last couple of 300's I have shot were on the 2013 nationals pattern, and a Kegel sport pattern. I just bowled a super senior tournament where it took a 215 average to make the cut on a kegel challenge pattern. 

I think bowling would be better at the competitive level if cut back on the friction of ball surfaces ( go back to plastic or polished urethane ), allowing the use of less oil, and the patterns to hold up better.  That is the biggest problem with high level scratch bowling today, not the relative level of scores.   

BackToBasics

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2014, 05:05:12 PM »
A big part of the reason the scores are higher on Sport patterns is the fact it's too easy to blow a hole in the pattern and open them up.  Sure, you have to be smart and know how but there is still a fundamental problem that the original shot can be changed so drastically.  This isn't all from bowlers getting better.

You start on a course with high rough, fast greens and tough pin placements, the course will play just as tough for everyone.

JustRico

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2014, 05:13:05 PM »
A study was just released...bowling balls equated to approx 7 pin in average where lane conditions effected scoring between 15-30 pins....
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avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2014, 09:34:58 PM »
That is why I said they need to cut back on the friction of balls for competitive bowling.  The modern balls do blow a hole in the pattern too quickly, but, trust me on this, it only helps if you have a bunch of good bowlers who know what they are doing.  Tour was terrible for quite awhile because the power guys would blow them up from 4th arrow in right away, leaving nobody with anywhere to move.  Now you see the guys starting around 10, playing straight and giving themselves more room to move as the shot breaks down.  Top seniors have always played them this way, because most don't  have enough revs to move in right away and blow them up.