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Author Topic: For you guys who both bowl and golf  (Read 7854 times)

avabob

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For you guys who both bowl and golf
« on: May 05, 2014, 03:28:16 PM »
Does anyone but me find it humorous that so many message board posters complain about technology ruining bowling, and insist on comparing scoring from 1975 to today, yet we never hear anyone arguing that golfer should go back and have a persimmon driver only golf tournament. 

If you are my age and have done both for any length of time you know that there is as much difference between a persimmon driver circa 1975, and the 460 cc monsters of today as their is between my old yellow dot, and my Mastermind.

 

Mighty Fish

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2014, 06:35:57 PM »
If you don't think bowlers are better, look at what is happening to scores on sports patterns.  They are going up a bunch too.  Second year in a row a team record is set at Nationals.
Dear avabob:

True, but with regard to the Nationals, it's only a small fraction of bowlers -- the elite and talented true shotmakers -- who exploit the conditions, but when the entire field in the Regular Division can average only about 173 year after year, most of the modern-day high rollers (with their 200+ and 220+ averages) fall far short of their league "norms."

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2014, 07:56:53 PM »
Okay, so the second tier of scratch bowlers don't score as good at nationals as they do on house shots.  So what is different between now and 1985 in that respect.  I bowled the US open in 1980.  In the practice session I was talking to guys from Detroit who were averaging 225 in league.  Think any of those guys averaged 200 on that pattern. 

The upper 10% if bowlers average higher on house patterns than they did 35 years ago.  The top 5% are more versatile and talented than any bowlers in history.   

Mighty Fish

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2014, 08:41:32 PM »
Dear avabob:

I'm sure things (scoring-wise) were varied in different parts of the country. When I moved to Florida in 1966, there had never been an 800 series in the history of the state, and the very highest statewide average on the first season I bowled in Florida was 214 by Jacksonville's Glenn Pierce. And I'd have to check for the exact number of 200+ averagers in the entire state, but that number was certainly no higher than 20.

Pinbuster

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 10:53:00 AM »
While technology in golf has helped one hit the ball longer and straighter it still doesn't help with getting the ball in the hole. Putting is such a large part of the game and pitching and chipping when you miss the green hasn't been helped much. You still have to have certain skills to get the ball in the hole.

The average golfing handicap has stayed around 16 I believe.

And while the average bowling score hasn't increased a lot as well some of that maybe do to the graying of the average bowler. I have to believe the average age of league bowler here has to be in the mid 50's.

Between the technology of the balls, synthetic lane surfaces, and lane machines that strip and prepare the lanes the lack of certain bowling skills can be masked.

My biggest complaint of modern bowling equipment is how it alters the playing field.

If you could come up with a playing surface that didn't require conditioner or make the balls where they didn't remove conditioner rapidly I believe the game would be better served. But I don't believe either is going to happen shortly.

It has become a headache at many tournaments that bowlers are starting to refuse to bowl second shifts and insist that lanes be run between squads.

Mighty Fish

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 01:31:11 PM »
And while the average bowling score hasn't increased a lot as well some of that maybe do to the graying of the average bowler. I have to believe the average age of league bowler here has to be in the mid 50's.
... and certainly, in my area of Florida, where there are a lot of senior bowlers, a similar age dynamic likely holds true.

avabob

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2014, 09:29:20 AM »
Average age of league bowlers has increased significantly.  However there are several implications to that.  Fish noted that in 1966 there had never been an 800 in the history of his association.  Similar in my area.  One guy had the first 800 along about 1967.  Then he had another a couple of years later.  None shot then until 1975 when we had 8, many with Shore Ds. 

I don't think many people understand the degree to which the game was in its infancy in the 1960's.  Just because the game had been around for 60 years isn't the same thing.  The bowling boom of the late 50's was really the beginning of the modern game in many respects.  Technology was minimal.  Coaching  non existent.  Many bowlers were first learning the game.  When I started in 1961, everyone in my town was a beginner no matter what the age. 

MTbowler

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2014, 11:42:43 AM »
One of the biggest differences is the amount of control one has over a shot. In golf for instances, (not accounting for wind obviously), if I make a great swing and send the ball down the middle of the fairway, it should end up relatively close to the center of fairway. Even with wind, you can judge how far left(right) you need to aim to have the ball end up in the middle. However, in bowling, the less advanced players do not see transition and do not know how to move. They will make a perfect shot off their hand, (same as last shot that might have struck) and have this one hit a dry patch, hook through the face and left the greek church. That would be the equivalent of hitting a perfect 8 iron right at the pin, and all of a sudden a bunker pops up in the middle of the green and your ball plugs in it.

In my opinion, there needs to be more restrictions on lane conditioner, lane machines, oil patterns, bowling balls, ect. There was not as much guessing back in the day. Scores were not as high, but I venture to say that more people enjoyed bowling more because a 150 guy had a shot at competing with a 180. I would say that back with urathane balls and less dense oil patterns, there was a much greater difference between a 150 avg bowler and a 190 avg bowler whereas today, on today's house shots, there is not that great of a difference between a 190 avg and a 220 avg. Granted, the 220 is much more consistent, but half the time, the diff is the 190 cant make a spare to save his(her) life.

I believe bowling needs to dial things back a bit, focus more on the youth and the actual "sport" of bowling, rather than teaching everyone that in order to be great, you need 600 rpms and high speed.

Mighty Fish

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2014, 04:23:16 PM »
In my opinion, there needs to be more restrictions on lane conditioner, lane machines, oil patterns, bowling balls, ect. There was not as much guessing back in the day. Scores were not as high, but I venture to say that more people enjoyed bowling more because a 150 guy had a shot at competing with a 180. I would say that back with urathane balls and less dense oil patterns, there was a much greater difference between a 150 avg bowler and a 190 avg bowler whereas today, on today's house shots, there is not that great of a difference between a 190 avg and a 220 avg. Granted, the 220 is much more consistent, but half the time, the diff is the 190 cant make a spare to save his(her) life.
Dear MTbowler:

Your above-quoted paragraph contains some valid observations, and the entire post is thought-provoking, in my opinion.

txbowler

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Re: For you guys who both bowl and golf
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2014, 05:02:07 PM »
As many have said relating to this issue, the horse is already out of the barn and jumped the fence!

You make valid points but going back is not going to grow the sport.  It would cause more people to leave in my opinion as they are used to the easier conditions and hook it like Tommy Jones balls they have now.  Force everyone back to urethane and a lot of bowlers I feel would quit because now instead of averaging 200 with no practice, they would average 180-190 again and that would be no fun.

I do not think bowling will ever return to the heights it achieved decades before. 

Kids have too many other things to be interested in that didn't exist in the 80s & 90s.  Atari & Intellivision were just getting started.  Now X-box and playstation rule the world.

The blue collar leagues that the big cities and lanes always had have gone away.

Also cost is a factor.  Back in the 80's and 90's my parents could unload me at the local lanes with a $20, and between bowling, arcade games and food, I'd be busy for 4-6 hours easy.

Today that same thing would take $50-100. 

And we know that the weekend lane conditions are just great for a junior bowler to work and improve their game.  (Just ignore the black lights and loud music in the background)

For my point of view, bowling was also the sport that didn't require you to be a perfect athlete.  The super thin kids and the over-weight kids seemed to be the ones who bowled.  Athletic kids played baseball and football on the weekends.

It gave them the chance to compete against anyone.  You didn't have to be blessed with god given size to be a bowler.

Those same kids today find other ways to be competitive with others.  Through video games, and other online activities, they can stay home and have fun.

It is a long hard battle ahead in my opinion.

One of the biggest differences is the amount of control one has over a shot. In golf for instances, (not accounting for wind obviously), if I make a great swing and send the ball down the middle of the fairway, it should end up relatively close to the center of fairway. Even with wind, you can judge how far left(right) you need to aim to have the ball end up in the middle. However, in bowling, the less advanced players do not see transition and do not know how to move. They will make a perfect shot off their hand, (same as last shot that might have struck) and have this one hit a dry patch, hook through the face and left the greek church. That would be the equivalent of hitting a perfect 8 iron right at the pin, and all of a sudden a bunker pops up in the middle of the green and your ball plugs in it.

In my opinion, there needs to be more restrictions on lane conditioner, lane machines, oil patterns, bowling balls, ect. There was not as much guessing back in the day. Scores were not as high, but I venture to say that more people enjoyed bowling more because a 150 guy had a shot at competing with a 180. I would say that back with urathane balls and less dense oil patterns, there was a much greater difference between a 150 avg bowler and a 190 avg bowler whereas today, on today's house shots, there is not that great of a difference between a 190 avg and a 220 avg. Granted, the 220 is much more consistent, but half the time, the diff is the 190 cant make a spare to save his(her) life.

I believe bowling needs to dial things back a bit, focus more on the youth and the actual "sport" of bowling, rather than teaching everyone that in order to be great, you need 600 rpms and high speed.