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Author Topic: Handicap Discussion  (Read 3532 times)

ITZPS

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Handicap Discussion
« on: March 27, 2017, 05:19:33 PM »
Two things handicap needs: rule adjustment/reform, ENFORCEMENT.  Thanks for watching, argue with me below LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C44EOoYzlw8
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leftybowler70

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 05:26:28 PM »
As always, your on point again, I have subscribed to your channel.
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psycaz

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 08:11:42 PM »
Great video. I agree whole-heartedly.
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matt1286

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 09:04:49 AM »
Good video, and strong points made.  One thing you didn't discuss was how averages change from league to league and center to center, and how these averages are "abused" in tournaments.  Example.  If I bowled 2 leagues this season and averaged 230 in a newer well maintained center, and 205 in a run down beat up center with wood lanes, then obviously I would have to use my higher average for my State tournament, or City tournament, or other handicap tournaments. 
However, let's say this next season I decide to only bowl league at the center I average 205 in.  Now when I bowl handicap tournaments, I get to use an average of 205 and all of a sudden I'm getting handicap that I really shouldn't be getting.  Now I would be playing 100% within the rules, but I would undeniably getting an advantage over other bowlers.  In the Midwest, there are several small 8-12 lane centers that get about two 300 games a year, not 50-100 like several of the larger centers.  I don't really know what the answer would be to fix this, but this is and will continue to be a big problem in my opinion.
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charlest

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 09:13:35 AM »
Quote from: matt1286 on March 28, 2017, 09:04:49 AM
Good video, and strong points made.  One thing you didn't discuss was how averages change from league to league and center to center, and how these averages are "abused" in tournaments.  Example.  If I bowled 2 leagues this season and averaged 230 in a newer well maintained center, and 205 in a run down beat up center with wood lanes, then obviously I would have to use my higher average for my State tournament, or City tournament, or other handicap tournaments. 
However, let's say this next season I decide to only bowl league at the center I average 205 in.  Now when I bowl handicap tournaments, I get to use an average of 205 and all of a sudden I'm getting handicap that I really shouldn't be getting.  Now I would be playing 100% within the rules, but I would undeniably getting an advantage over other bowlers.  In the Midwest, there are several small 8-12 lane centers that get about two 300 games a year, not 50-100 like several of the larger centers.  I don't really know what the answer would be to fix this, but this is and will continue to be a big problem in my opinion.

Most of the leagues and tournaments in my area address that sort of issue with where and when your highest average comes from. That is, they go back at least 3 years in all USBC sanctioned competition, with local associations, then all state associations having precedence over those outside the state..
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ITZPS

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 09:32:37 AM »
Tournaments are a big issue and I did make note that scratch bowlers usually avoid handicap tournaments or just put up with it.  Leagues usually you don't have much choice over what you bowl, you may just have to bowl what you have available, but tournaments you can pick and choose.  I don't bowl many tournaments, and the ones I do, I know what I'm getting myself into. 

In the circumstances you mentioned, rules are rules, always follow the rules.  I'm in a very unique situation this year due to simply following the rules, but have argued with as many people as I can argue with about fixing the rules.  Unless someone changes the rules, your choices are to deal with it or just not bowl the tournament unfortunately . . but it's funny how many people want to take something serious until it comes to them actually doing something about it, then they shrink into a corner . .

Quote from: matt1286 on March 28, 2017, 09:04:49 AM
Good video, and strong points made.  One thing you didn't discuss was how averages change from league to league and center to center, and how these averages are "abused" in tournaments.  Example.  If I bowled 2 leagues this season and averaged 230 in a newer well maintained center, and 205 in a run down beat up center with wood lanes, then obviously I would have to use my higher average for my State tournament, or City tournament, or other handicap tournaments. 
However, let's say this next season I decide to only bowl league at the center I average 205 in.  Now when I bowl handicap tournaments, I get to use an average of 205 and all of a sudden I'm getting handicap that I really shouldn't be getting.  Now I would be playing 100% within the rules, but I would undeniably getting an advantage over other bowlers.  In the Midwest, there are several small 8-12 lane centers that get about two 300 games a year, not 50-100 like several of the larger centers.  I don't really know what the answer would be to fix this, but this is and will continue to be a big problem in my opinion.
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ITZPS

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 09:33:47 AM »
3 years for me is ideal, most only go back a year.  You can't make it so easy for someone to sandbag and then complain when they do . .

Quote from: charlest on March 28, 2017, 09:13:35 AM
Quote from: matt1286 on March 28, 2017, 09:04:49 AM
Good video, and strong points made.  One thing you didn't discuss was how averages change from league to league and center to center, and how these averages are "abused" in tournaments.  Example.  If I bowled 2 leagues this season and averaged 230 in a newer well maintained center, and 205 in a run down beat up center with wood lanes, then obviously I would have to use my higher average for my State tournament, or City tournament, or other handicap tournaments. 
However, let's say this next season I decide to only bowl league at the center I average 205 in.  Now when I bowl handicap tournaments, I get to use an average of 205 and all of a sudden I'm getting handicap that I really shouldn't be getting.  Now I would be playing 100% within the rules, but I would undeniably getting an advantage over other bowlers.  In the Midwest, there are several small 8-12 lane centers that get about two 300 games a year, not 50-100 like several of the larger centers.  I don't really know what the answer would be to fix this, but this is and will continue to be a big problem in my opinion.

Most of the leagues and tournaments in my area address that sort of issue with where and when your highest average comes from. That is, they go back at least 3 years in all USBC sanctioned competition, with local associations, then all state associations having precedence over those outside the state..
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leftybowler70

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2017, 11:18:42 AM »
Couldn't agree more ^^
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Juggernaut

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2017, 11:34:26 AM »
How do you guys feel about NEGATIVE handicap?
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michael.willis9

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 12:21:22 PM »
Quote from: Juggernaut on March 28, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
How do you guys feel about NEGATIVE handicap?

nope
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SVstar34

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 12:26:17 PM »
Quote from: Juggernaut on March 28, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
How do you guys feel about NEGATIVE handicap?

No, it just needs to be based on an amount equal to or higher than the highest average
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ITZPS

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 12:29:27 PM »
This is what I feel is fair.  They say in certain programs you can't have fluctuating handicap, but one thing a league I'm in has done to make things easier is that everyone has their own individual handicap for league awards, BUT for team placement or wins and losses, handicap is 90% of the difference between the two teams averages.  This year we have seen a VERY tight standings board, and I like it that way.  Very good idea we came up with and it's worked well. 

Quote from: SVstar34 on March 28, 2017, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Juggernaut on March 28, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
How do you guys feel about NEGATIVE handicap?

No, it just needs to be based on an amount equal to or higher than the highest average
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storm22

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 12:30:33 PM »
I avoid handicap tournaments like the plague...and it really stinks because that means I don't bowl many tournaments.  Even states or counties that have "both divisions" it still isn't worth it because the scratch division gets no one in it and the prize fund is pitiful.  If I win the division I get like $100 and it cost 20 to get in!  LOL!!!
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Steven

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 05:59:08 PM »
I'm fortunate to have been able to bowl nothing but scratch leagues for the past 15 years or so. I have been of the school of "just get better" and avoid the handicap nonsense.
 
This year, I decided to bowl a a daytime senior league with my aging mom. Handicap is 100% of 200, and you get your full average if you're absent. I entered with a 227 book, which gives me 27 "bonus" pins a game. Nobody seems to care. I explained the built in advantage I was getting at the league meeting, and proposed 100% of 230 for my situation. I was voted down! Maybe they just didn't get it, but whatever. I tried to do the right thing.
 
In any case, this experience has given me a whole new perspective on handicap bowling. These people for the most part only bowl once a week, and they're not going to get better. It's the same with most younger adults in nighttime handicap leagues. So my attitude now is that 100% is just fine. There are so many flaws in handicap by it's very nature that's it's futile to come up with something perfect. Leave it at 100% of a number larger than the highest average in the league and just have fun. It's not worth stressing over.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Handicap Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2017, 08:47:02 AM »
Quote from: ITZPS on March 28, 2017, 12:29:27 PM
This is what I feel is fair.  They say in certain programs you can't have fluctuating handicap, but one thing a league I'm in has done to make things easier is that everyone has their own individual handicap for league awards, BUT for team placement or wins and losses, handicap is 90% of the difference between the two teams averages.  This year we have seen a VERY tight standings board, and I like it that way.  Very good idea we came up with and it's worked well. 

Quote from: SVstar34 on March 28, 2017, 12:26:17 PM
Quote from: Juggernaut on March 28, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
How do you guys feel about NEGATIVE handicap?

No, it just needs to be based on an amount equal to or higher than the highest average
I like handicap based on the team differences. 

For those worried about fluctuating average base, just use 300.  Get the same result.  Sounds weird but produces the same effect.  Those complaining about handicap may push back due to ignorance, but this will protect against someone averaging higher than the base.

I think Luke said as much in the video, can't remember.
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