Post by: RyanRPS on May 28, 2008, 11:32:43 AM
We won the league and acompanying KO Cup last year in a great season, and where quietly confident for this year.
Well, at the end of the season, we had the high team average scratch... and finshed 5th!! sickened!
Into the KnockOut and we scraped through the group stages into the Quarter finals, and on a piss poor condition we got beaten by straightbowling fluffers in a luck contest to go out... not impressed!
Any time we complain about handicaps, we get the same answer... "its a handicap league".. which would be a valid answer of there was a scratch alternative... but there isnt
really makes you wonder why you bother!
Ah well... on to the world cup qualifier... at least thats scratch and played on some oil!
Ryan
Post by: tenpin477 on May 28, 2008, 08:01:19 PM
See atleast my house theres is a Scratch League, too bad I wont get to bowl in it, as my first year as an adult I will be away at college.
Post by: nextbowler on May 28, 2008, 09:12:26 PM
won it one year, what do you expect?
Post by: scadreau on May 28, 2008, 11:04:01 PM
Post by: charlest on May 29, 2008, 12:25:37 AM
I was in this mixed handicap league for the first time this year. 3 of the 4 bowlers were 190 - 205. There were some teams with 4 100 - 120 average men and women. It IS a social league, not a money league. We're weren't there to make money (there were no pots and no brackets) we were there to have fun and bowl. While bowling we wanted to win, of course.
Afterwards and at the end of each night, I kind of felt bad for many of the lower average teams. There were many of them in this 24 team league. The handicap was 80% of the difference in the team average. (I like that system the percenatge is bad, however.)
At 80%, with our team having two 190 avgs, and one 205 avg, we had a HUGE advantage in terms of handicap pins. HUGE!
Does anyone remember that the ABC had calculated that, on average, for all the teams and leagues that existed the handicap, in order for all teams to be on equal footing, had to be 110%!
So if your league uses 90%, the higher average teams sti have a large advantage over lower average teams, nomatter what your impression might be!
--------------------
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Post by: agroves on May 29, 2008, 12:32:47 AM
http://www.wsusbc.net/pdf/Open_Tourn/Singles%20event%20week%208.pdf
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--Andrew
Post by: Helsie on May 29, 2008, 03:32:12 AM
Starting a scratch league is probably not an option. There is a singles league running over there and they have a scratch section and a handicap section, however, while there are some good bowlers in it, it is only a handful and the standard of the handicap league that he is referring to, is actually higher...
Starting another scratch league is probably not an option as you hear the cries of 'What's the point, I'll never beat so and so.' There are not a great deal of bowlers over there to begin with.
Post by: Grayson on May 29, 2008, 03:37:02 AM
Sandbagging is a big problem here... but dare to complain!
We lost against a team with the same pinfall with +400 points difference on 4 games! is this fair... I say no!
well.... as a second center opened 11 weeks agaon and they will start their own league we'll see how things turn out
the idea to rise the lvl of average to 220 is a neat idea but will not fix the problem...
it is still 90% and that imho is too much
the range should go 150-200 with 75% handicap.
And I am in the samne position... no scratch league here
--------------------
Sebastian Koch
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Post by: Pinbuster on May 29, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
If scratch averages were going to dictate where you fell in the standings then why even have the handicap in the first place.
If you knew the what the results were going to be before you started the league then there wouldn’t be a competition.
You can look at any handicap league with a large dispersion of team average. The top 5 stops will be dominated by the high average teams.
If you can’t get a scratch league started then try and get a league of higher average bowlers so that handicap is not as much of an issue.
Post by: Grayson on May 29, 2008, 07:13:19 AM
Here we found that the lower scoring teams have a big advantage agains the teams around the handicap-"edge" of 190... you are the clear loser if you average 190!
And there comes the sandbagging which game I - and btw also my teamcolleges - refuse to play along with.
so ... though having a higher average we dropped from place 3 down to place 7.
I admit we lost to low lvl teams by own dumbness and bad games but two games we were beaten on the paper... not on the lane.
... playing your average+10 and still losing against a team that averaged 20 pins lower is just hurting!
--------------------
Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
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Post by: JOE FALCO on May 29, 2008, 07:16:53 AM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: laddog54 on May 29, 2008, 10:26:32 AM
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my vote for president is green nikes
Post by: Madiballz23 on May 29, 2008, 10:49:03 AM
Usually we would win total by 200-300 pins, with the occasional 500 pin total ever so often. In that instance, the handicap rule basically made us all 200 avg bowlers and the rest of the pins in our avg were bonus.
Luckily, they decided to change the handicap next year to 80% of 220 so that it doesn't get that way again. There is always two ends of the spectrum and you need to view both of them.
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First one to leave 15 ten pins wins!
Post by: Gazoo on May 29, 2008, 01:07:00 PM
Edited on 5/29/2008 4:00 PM
Post by: trash heap on May 29, 2008, 01:35:12 PM
The handicap was 90% of 210. So in their eyes we were getting 63 pins more a game. Well the SUB bowled around her average for all 3 games. I recall it was like two games with 90 something and one game over 110.
It was my Father-in-law and I that had the big games that carried us not the Sub. All I heard that night was how many pins we were getting and we did it purposely to beat them.
This is simple math and most people don't understand it.
Post by: Steven on May 29, 2008, 01:57:30 PM
quote:
Does anyone remember that the ABC had calculated that, on average, for all the teams and leagues that existed the handicap, in order for all teams to be on equal footing, had to be 110%!
Yes, I've read this, and it's one of the more bogus ABC claims to date.
In a world where lower average teams are actually improving over the course of a year, higher average teams are behind the 8-ball. Most 210-230 average bowlers have reached their plateau, so improvement opportunities are few to none. The improving lower average teams have a clear advantage.
This is not theory or conjecture. For several years I was in a 640 max trio league (90% of 220 handicap). We were consistently the highest average entering team in the league, coming in at 637-640. We always ended up in the bottom half of the standings, losing out to lower average teams that progressively got better, especially in the second half.
There was nothing funny or unethical going on, just the natural dynamics of less experienced bowlers getting better. In my case, I decided I'd had enough of handicap and have been bowling exclusively scratch in the 7 years since with absolutely no regrets.
Handicap is what it is, so if it frustrates you, find scratch competition.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"
Post by: tenpin477 on May 29, 2008, 02:32:38 PM
Personally I disagree with subs in a Handicap league anyway. I dont think that type of environment should allow subs. A Scratch league absolutely, but not a handicap league.
Edited on 5/29/2008 2:39 PM
Post by: trash heap on May 29, 2008, 02:48:58 PM
Post by: tenpin477 on May 29, 2008, 03:00:19 PM
Getting a 105 sub for a 175 bowler gives you more of an advantage. Again, its legal so you really cant complain about it, all you can do is try to change the rules next year.
Post by: shelley on May 29, 2008, 03:15:06 PM
quote:
Getting a 105 sub for a 175 bowler gives you more of an advantage.
Only if you're bowling against people that can't do third-grade math. Or have your own difficulties with third grade math. Or both.
Given the number of people who whine about handicap, I suspect our mathematical education system in this country is sorely lacking.
SH
Post by: trash heap on May 29, 2008, 03:18:17 PM
You might have a case if a bowler with 105 average throws 170s or 180s but that was not the scenario.
Post by: tenpin477 on May 29, 2008, 09:02:44 PM
If they are going to be implemented, handicap should be based off the league members average, not the subs.
Handicap in a Handicap league is good thing, I just dont think you should be able to use subs. You are already getting extra pins, thats enough of a sub.
Post by: trash heap on May 29, 2008, 10:05:07 PM
quote:
Handicap in a Handicap league is good thing, I just dont think you should be able to use subs. You are already getting extra pins, thats enough of a sub.
Let see if I can this straight. Instead of the sub getting handicap based off his/her average the handicap should remain the same for the team.
So its okay if I have 105 average bowler on my team and I get a sub with a 200 average. My team still keeps the handicap of the 105 bowler being replaced.
Post by: ibowled286 on May 29, 2008, 10:24:35 PM
Post by: tenpin477 on May 30, 2008, 06:17:19 AM
Edited on 5/30/2008 6:17 AM
Post by: Grayson on May 30, 2008, 06:27:07 AM
When the gal/pal plays first time... the same:
the handicap is calculated for those games and the nadded to those games... based on those games.
No you can imagine that there is a lot of strategy behind this if you have a sub and need high handicap you "let" him (assuming gals are not so rotten
) suck the first game to get a very high handicap for the following.--------------------
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Post by: RyanRPS on May 30, 2008, 07:40:19 AM
quote:
Start up a scratch league yourself than. Im sure there are other bowlers like you who would bowl.
See atleast my house theres is a Scratch League, too bad I wont get to bowl in it, as my first year as an adult I will be away at college.
There is no scratch league at present, and there are about only 10 players at most who would play a scratch league.. we have no option but to play the handicap league
quote:
Not sure what your handicap is based on but most leagues are 90% of 220 or something to that effect. This still gives the advantage to the higher average bowler. If you hit your average and they do too, you win.
true.... however it is harder for a 220 average player to shoot over average than it is for alower average player... if a player opens on average 4 frames a game then they only need to spare 1 more shot to add 10 pins or so... for a 220 average player to up their average by 10 they need to string several strikes! The lower average players are generally the straighter bowlers too, whos averages dont change if the conditions are poor one week, while the higher average players are more at the mercy of the lane man! have a dry pattern out one week your playing a straighter team, and your sunk!
Ryan
Edited on 5/30/2008 7:43 AM
Post by: ibowled286 on May 30, 2008, 07:52:55 AM
Post by: janderson on May 30, 2008, 08:04:05 AM
quote:
we got beaten by straightbowling fluffers in a luck contest to go out... not impressed!
Don't kid yourself. This happens in scratch leagues as much as handicap leagues. Luck always plays a role, but things have a way of evening out, but on any given night...
A team on a cap-free scratch league loaded itself up with the top professionals in the area. While everyone expected them to win - on paper it was not even close - they finished 6th (out of 14).
Moving to a scratch league doesn't guarantee you victory either.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Edited on 5/30/2008 8:05 AM
Post by: trash heap on May 30, 2008, 08:41:41 AM
quote:
true.... however it is harder for a 220 average player to shoot over average than it is for alower average player... if a player opens on average 4 frames a game then they only need to spare 1 more shot to add 10 pins or so... for a 220 average player to up their average by 10 they need to string several strikes! The lower average players are generally the straighter bowlers too, whos averages dont change if the conditions are poor one week, while the higher average players are more at the mercy of the lane man! have a dry pattern out one week your playing a straighter team, and your sunk!
Sorry but this entirely wrong!!
You make the 220 average player a consistent bowler all the time. Only bowls between 210 - 240. You know that is not the case. If someone is averaging 220 they will have nights bowling 250, 260, and then bowl a game under 200. They also have nights that they bowl 700+ series.
Its the same for someone with a lower average. A bowler with a 170 average will bowl 190, 180, and a 200+ game one week. The following week they bowl a 150, 140, and 170.
You have complainers on both sides of the fence and most of the complaining is done when its not in their favor.
The simple solution to this argument is to toughen up the condition (bring down the inflated games across the board), but 99% of the complainers don't want that. So they continue to whine that someone has an unfair advantage.
Post by: rvmark on May 30, 2008, 09:28:19 AM
Post by: RyanRPS on May 30, 2008, 10:25:39 AM
I still dont agree about it being as easy/easier for a high average player to play above his average... higher averaging players, in my opinion, are much more consistant, and are less likely to have very high or very low games on a regular basis, while a 160 average player may shoot one 180-190+ game a week, which would require a 210 player to shoot around 230-240 to match them.
I know most of my complaints seem like whining lol but imagin how annoying it is consistantly outbowling and outscoring your aponents, and them walking off with the points
Ryan
Post by: dicnic on May 30, 2008, 10:35:45 AM
By the way, in my senior league (which is 100% of the difference in the team average) the winning team this past season included a blind guy and a guy with COPD so bad he used an oxygen tank between frames!
Go figure!!
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Never take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
Post by: eglleftcoast on May 30, 2008, 10:36:22 AM
Post by: trash heap on May 30, 2008, 11:56:52 AM
quote:
in this particular league we lost maybe, at most, 5-10 individual games on scratch
That's your problem. Your looking at scratch scores in a handicap league. You are only seeing this issue from your side. My team is better than every team here scratch...we deserve to win! Scratch doesn't mean #%^& in a handicap league.
Post by: trash heap on May 30, 2008, 12:12:31 PM
quote:
On the opposite end of the "I get beat by handicap even though we have the high team avg in the league" spectrum, I bowled in a league on friday nights this year where the handicap was 80% of 200. Handicap was given to each individual based on their avg. My team had avgs of 207, 173, 221, 225, and 227. We did the 4 point system a night with 35 weeks, and out of 140 total points we lost...... 25 all season.
This kind of thing should not be allowed to happen in a handicap league. You could have an off night and probably still won games.
Your team must of really sucked when you lost points!
I really think league rules need to be adjusted immediately so this thing doesn't happen.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on May 30, 2008, 07:38:22 PM
The problem with handicap leagues is there is no cap on lower averages. There is no reason why anyone under 150 should get more pins. If you don't like it, practice and join us when your ready.
Post by: shelley on May 30, 2008, 08:48:40 PM
quote:
sigh...people like "Shelly" seriously don't "get it" about handicap leagues and the problems they present. I have respect for her om this board but I have heard this person defend "math" against "logic".
Math vs. logic. Yeah, that's a toughie. I'm not convinced they're all that different, but maybe that's because I have a degree in math.
As for "Shelly", it's not a nickname, it's my actual name. And there are two "e"s. Maybe you're thinking of someone else. A girl, perhaps.
SH
Post by: rvmark on May 30, 2008, 10:11:46 PM
Post by: JessN16 on May 30, 2008, 10:49:44 PM
quote:
If league rules say you can then yeah, although most leagues around here limit subs to being at or under the bowler they are subbing for. A 200 could not sub for a 105, but a 105 could sub for a 200, and your teams handicap should not change.
Edited on 5/30/2008 6:17 AM
In a time when leagues are trying to fill their teams and invite new bowlers to bowl (or current bowlers to pick up an extra league) there's no reason to put rules in place to limit participation even further.
There are two issues here:
* Sandbagging: It's been around since the beginning of the sport. You're not going to stop it. If it bothers you that much, don't bowl handicap leagues or tournaments. Start up a scratch league (although if you have a cap, you might encourage it again).
* Beginners getting better: It happens. I'm sure the guys who had to suffer through me shooting my 595 scratch off a 155 average in the Alabama state tournament back in 95 or so still think I'm a bagger, when in fact I was just in my fourth year of bowling and becoming competent. These are the people we need to keep in the sport. We can't get mad at them for getting better.
Max handicap limits are an idea but I've seen them implemented incorrectly before (like, a 60-stick limit on a 12-team league made up of six teams of total greenhorns) and new bowlers end up getting chased off.
Again, scratch leagues are your "fix" to this situation, followed closely by a set of league officers who have the sacks necessary to confront baggers. Complaining about people who just get better over the course of the year is pure jealousy. That's really all the scenarios right there.
Jess
Post by: JOE FALCO on May 31, 2008, 11:28:27 AM
There are some people that IF THEY DON'T WIN there's a reason to find something wrong someplace! YOU GOT BEAT .. that's all there is to it!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O