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Author Topic: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?  (Read 8701 times)

DrillLord

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Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« on: August 27, 2008, 06:01:53 AM »
I currently bowl on a MENS league that has always had handicap at 80% of 200.  Last year we had a couple of bowlers average over 200 and acquired a couple more that probably will.  During the league meeting it was recommended that the handicap be changed to 80% of 220 to account for this.  

The league has always had a MAX handicap of 52 pins.  So if a bowler averaged under 135 they would still receive no more than 52 pins of handicap.  

The league did nat address changing the maximum until some of the bowlers (the ones that average under 155) on the first night started to complain since they maxed on the handicap and felt that they should get more.  I like having the max, but if we set the max any higher it wil begin to remind me of my mixed doubles team that started 180 pins in the hole each game.  I always thought that the max handicap would inspire bowlers below that level to become better?

Opinions?????
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ThongPrincess

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 05:13:19 PM »
I stated in another thread I do not like negative handicap, and in essence putting a max on the amount of handicap is a negative handicap for the lower average bowler.  

Yes it could inspire the lower average bowler to improve, if they have the resources, talent, and skill to do so.  On the other hand it will discourage lower average bowlers from joining the league.  It is like saying if the bowler averages less than 155, he is not welcome in the league because he will hurt the team.

Just my opinion.
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Edited on 8/27/2008 5:13 PM
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mainzer

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2008, 05:42:18 PM »
YES YES YES!!!

I don't think bowlers that dont match up with the skill level of the league should be allowed to bowl in the league. I.E. if you are in a better handicap league the vast majority of bowlers are averaging over lets say 180 then a group of guys shows up that average between 140-160 that is not fair for the rest of the league comprised of good bowlers. Their should be a competiton clause to some leagues if you wanna go and bowl for fun fine do it in a league that is meant for that but dont show up and bowl in competitve league when you are not competitve.

So essentially Cowboy up and get better or go somewhere else, If that is fair to tell the better bowlers than it is fair to tell it to bowlers that are not so good.

Hope that makes sense
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Nicanor

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2008, 07:02:25 PM »
I think that if the league went to a handicap based on 225 from 200 then the max handicap should be adjusted proportionally imho.

Our league is based on 225 but handicap is only 80% of the difference between 225 and 160.



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JohnP

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2008, 09:58:17 PM »
Handicap is designed to give the lower average bowlers a chance.  There should not be any cap on handicap.  --  JohnP
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mainzer

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2008, 10:21:36 PM »
quote:
Handicap is designed to give the lower average bowlers a chance.  There should not be any cap on handicap.  --  JohnP


But a team looking to bowl in league should also make sure they are in a league appropraite for them. A five man team the averages under 800 a game should NOT be in a handicap league with teams that are all averaging over 1000.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2008, 10:29:11 PM »
I don't know where y'all bowl, but for me, you cannot just kick people out of (or strongly suggest they leave) a league just because they don't average the same as everyone else.  What if that was the only bowling center near them, or that was the only time they could bowl, or the wife is playing canasta, or it is Monday and the husband is watching Monday Night Football?  Just because the bowler may not average high is a bad reason to exile them from a league with "180 average bowlers".  I suppose monetarily speaking you don't mind losing the prize fund from that team.  Or you always have teams dying to join your "you can only average 180" league.
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DrillLord

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 08:39:05 AM »
I'm not talking about kicking people off of a league or a league of 180 average bowlers.  I'm just saying that if you are maxed out on handicap and can't average 155 the solution to this is not more handicap, its practice, look for advice, or something.
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mainzer

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 08:54:11 AM »
quote:
I'm not talking about kicking people off of a league or a league of 180 average bowlers.  I'm just saying that if you are maxed out on handicap and can't average 155 the solution to this is not more handicap, its practice, look for advice, or something.


Yeah sorry for hijacking this one, this debate hits a button for me.
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Atochabsh

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 09:32:08 AM »
This is a  problem today when houses want to be full and that means there ends up being a wide variety of skill levels in the handicap leagues.  

What the league is really doing is putting a minimum average in their league.  I suggest that the rules just say it like it is, no dancing around it with max handicap and stuff like that.  Then you'll see how many drop out of the league.  Less people equals less prize fund etc........

And for the lower average bowler and everyone on up to 220, the league should handicap to cover the highest averaged bowler in the league.  

I agree with Nicanor that if you raise the handicap at one end you need to balance it at the other with your max handicap.  If the cut off used to be 135, adjust it so that those same 135 are in the same situation.  Or you will see people drop the league.  There really should be no fear of giving them more handicap.  After all, you are still at 80% which is rare in our area.  Most of our leagues are 90% and that's 90% of the difference between the two teams.  While individual awards are 90% of the highest average in the league.  

Erin
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JohnP

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 11:32:40 AM »
Set the handicap base roughly 10 pins above the highest average, use 90% of the difference, with no max on handicap.  The low average teams may win the league, the purpose of handicap IS to give them a chance, but if they do it will be because they are improving during the year.  When they stop improving the high average teams will win most of the time.  --  JohnP
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9andaWiggle

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 11:47:50 AM »
Yes.  The Minimum AND Maximum should be 0, but I digress.

Handicap leagues should be filled with AMATEUR level (sub 200 avg.) bowlers who compete for trophies or plaques and NOT MONEY.

Scratch leagues should be filled with 200+ avg (what could maybe be considered Semi-Pro?) bowlers who compete for CASH.

If a 200+ avg bowler doesn't have the sac to bowl scratch, he doesn't deserve to bowl!

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novawagonmaster

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 07:27:33 PM »
quote:
Yes.  The Minimum AND Maximum should be 0, but I digress.

Handicap leagues should be filled with AMATEUR level (sub 200 avg.) bowlers who compete for trophies or plaques and NOT MONEY.

Scratch leagues should be filled with 200+ avg (what could maybe be considered Semi-Pro?) bowlers who compete for CASH.

If a 200+ avg bowler doesn't have the sac to bowl scratch, he doesn't deserve to bowl!

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Atochabsh

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »
There are many many 200 average bowlers that do not qualify for our local scratch leagues....they are too low.  Unless you are in the 215+ range you are mostly likely not competative in a scratch league.  We have over 50 bowlers in our association that average over 220.  Not unless you can find the rare scratch league with a low cap.  And I do mean rare.  How many 200 - 210 bowlers do you think are competitive in either of our two draft scratch leagues or the third 850 quads?

Work schedules travel and time often dictate which centers and nights you can bowl.  For many its also an issue of wanting to bowl with a spouse or significant other, or family member.  So saying that all 200 average bowlers must bowl scratch is just ludricris.  Lets say that all first year bowlers must bowl together.  Handicapping is not a perfect situation. There's no system that's going to be perfect.  But you can narrow the field and bring most participants into competition.  And by the way, I don't think any adult, no matter what they average wants to bowl for a trophy these days.  Trophies and plaques are something you leave behind in Jrs and most Jrs (especially the older ones) would rather have money too, but can't.  

In handicap leagues the improving bowler is king.  That's all there is to it. If no one is improving then yeah, the higher average bowlers have an edge.  But its just an edge.

Erin

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TWOHAND834

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Re: Handicap Max -- Should there be one?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 08:33:00 PM »
I agree with nova 75%. I wont go and say that people dont deserve to bowl.  However, if you are good enough to average 200+, then that means that bowling with people better than you will only make you better.  200 bowlers DO NOT NEED HANDICAP.  Plain and simple.  I am more tired of hearing people tell me that I should only be bowling scratch leagues when 99% of the high money men's leagues have handicap, AND BASED OFF 230.  Ridiculous.  There really isnt much in regards to scratch leagues here.
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