Post by: sevenpin63 on June 16, 2010, 11:22:08 AM
My mixed league I am on recently raised the handicap from 80% of 200, to 90% of 220. This is my fun league I bowl with my wife. You see I have been on this league for 7 years now and the lowest we have finished is 4th place but have finished first 4 times. And this year I had a very good year, the funny thing is I had no honor scores but I finished with a 227 average, the reason they changed the handicap.
Now my wife could care less but the other couple on my team are all upset about the handicap saying it is not fair. Me I can see there point they are penalizing me for having a good year, but I also consider it a challenge to beat them again. But it is not fair for the rest of my team.
I mean some teams are going to have over 300 in handicap (4 person teams) if they finish like they did last year, this is per game. They want to try to get it back down to a more reasonable handicap.
Question how would you handle this. Leave it as is or try to do something about it.
--------------------
DON''''T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
Edited on 6/16/2010 7:22 PM
Post by: shelley on June 16, 2010, 08:01:16 PM
80%? 90%? Who knows what the right percentage is. It'll depend on how much of an advantage you want to give the higher average bowler. I do know, however, that 230 is a better choice than 220 given that you averaged 227.
Again, that's based on a statistical, not emotional or nostalgic definition of "fair". If your definition of "fair" is emotional (high averages deserve to win) or nostalgic (200 was the magic number 40 years ago) then your brain is hopelessly and fundamentally broken.
I would leave it as is.
SH
Post by: BrianCRX90 on June 16, 2010, 08:04:18 PM
Why I hate handicap leagues that can change the handicap to whatever they want. There should be a USBC rule stating after a week or so the handicap is based on the average of the league...not one or two people that is averaging high.
I have one league that has been 90% of 210 since 1990 god knows and have been bowling in it every year and season since 1996 and we have had up and down years between what people average when the season is over and what the high average bowler was. The people that have tried to increase that are 170 average bowlers that tried to change it but denied.
On the flipside I have been on a league for 10 years where the average for whatever reason was 95% of 220 and I tried to get it to 90% of 210 (like that's asking a lot) and was turned down every time.
Post by: LotsaBalls on June 16, 2010, 08:35:51 PM
Post by: shelley on June 16, 2010, 08:40:26 PM
quote:
There should be a USBC rule stating after a week or so the handicap is based on the average of the league...not one or two people that is averaging high.
That's a different story and not the way I interpreted what the OP said. My understanding was that this was the beginning of the summer season or end of the fall season where they are voting on next year's rules. I would be 100%, absolutely opposed to changing the handicap mid-season to compensate for the high average bowlers. If I averaged 220+ like that, I might be tempted to quit.
There's an appropriate time to change the rules and even one week after the league has started is the wrong time. That's why the USBC requires 100% of the league's board of directors (officers+captains) to approve rule changes.
However, at the league meeting to end the year or kick off the year, if the league voted to change from 200/80 to 220/90 that's fine. That's the right time to do it.
SH
Post by: shelley on June 16, 2010, 08:43:49 PM
quote:
there was a 3 person tourney that ran for 6 weekends recently and it took over 2400 just to cash.
So? With 90% of 240, if you shoot your average you're looking at a 700+ set with handicap. If you average 230 (which I consider to be pretty lofty), you still get 9 pins of handicap and just shooting average you're looking at a 717 set. 2400 is 800 a man, and with that kind of handicap, you're only about 20-25 pins over average for each game.
Perhaps you have mathematical problems similar to Brian. Or this is where you say "Oh, when you break it down like that, it doesn't seem unreasonable at all."
SH
Post by: sevenpin63 on June 16, 2010, 09:06:07 PM
I was thinking of letting it go and see what happens next year but my other two teammates are in an uproar over this.
This will help my wife out as she only averages in the 130''s. But we had the lowest handicap already last year. We took first but its not liked we kicked everybody azz week in and week out. The teams we gave alot of pins too were the hardest to beat, it usually came down to who performed in the 10th frame. We usually had an easier time with the average teams.
I have already been asked why I am in this league, that I am to good to be in this league. I tell them that this is the league I bowl with my wife, kinda like our night out together away from the rat race.
--------------------
DON''T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
Edited on 6/16/2010 9:34 PM
Post by: charlest on June 16, 2010, 09:22:17 PM
This should be a fun league. 90% of the highest average in the league is not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Some of the people who replied were a little curt, but they were telling the truth, as I also see it.
This summer I joined a new league, also mixed handicap. I learned the handicap was 80% of 200, even though there are several of us who are well above 200. I questioned the secretary, very discreetly, because I'm a newbie here, didn't know him and dodn't want to sound nasty. I pointed out that there were people above that. He said he knew and that was the league rule. It's not fair. And there's no negative handicap. So be it.
Several years ago, the ABC (before it became the USBC) did a handicap study. It was learned that to make things even, handicap in such a league should be 110% of the highest average. Only then would a lower average team win 50% of the time against a higher average team. That would actually even the scores.
WHat do you think would happen if you proposed a handicap percentage of 110% ??
Just be lucky you got away with your 25+ pins over 200 for so many years.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: rvmark on June 16, 2010, 09:40:49 PM
It is a fun league and you should approach it as such. If you are truly bowling this as a night out with your wife then just go with the flow and enjoy yourself.
Mark
Post by: sevenpin63 on June 16, 2010, 09:45:22 PM
--------------------
DON'T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
Post by: nextbowler on June 16, 2010, 10:53:02 PM
over the amount that is being handicapped. If you say that this a "fun"
league, where is your sportsmanship?
Post by: LotsaBalls on June 16, 2010, 11:45:09 PM
quote:quote:
there was a 3 person tourney that ran for 6 weekends recently and it took over 2400 just to cash.
So? With 90% of 240, if you shoot your average you're looking at a 700+ set with handicap. If you average 230 (which I consider to be pretty lofty), you still get 9 pins of handicap and just shooting average you're looking at a 717 set. 2400 is 800 a man, and with that kind of handicap, you're only about 20-25 pins over average for each game.
Perhaps you have mathematical problems similar to Brian. Or this is where you say "Oh, when you break it down like that, it doesn't seem unreasonable at all."
SH
My last years book is 242 so I don't get any handicap. How is it unreasonable that 3 poeple have to average 260+ for 3 games all at the same time? I believe that national record is 2440 or so. First place was 2469 and they only shot 1900 actual. So its exceptable to you that someone would have to break a national record by 30 pins to win a tourney, and come damn close just to cash.
Post by: charlest on June 17, 2010, 06:47:53 AM
quote:
I will just leave it be, but I will have to listen to my other two teammates b!tch all year long on how this is so unfair.
--------------------
DON'T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
If you understand what we're saying, then may you should explain to them how it is unfair because you're still getting pins you shouldn't be.
And I agree with rvmark: "It is a fun league and you should approach it as such.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: dogman666 on June 17, 2010, 07:07:03 AM
--------------------
Mr. Natural
Post by: JOE FALCO on June 17, 2010, 08:38:49 AM
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones
Post by: Jesse James on June 17, 2010, 09:07:43 AM
quote:
We still win the league just about every year. The better bowler will still prevail most of the time.
@Rock, gsmack and Brian:
This last statement totally undermines all your rationalizing for having a "fair" handicap. Come on Dudes...if you don't like the handicap, join a scratch league. It amazes me how good scratch bowlers constantly complain about handicaps not being fair! Just means you have to work harder and can't sit back and cruise and say..."Hey, look at me...ain't I agreat bowler?" and still win. Ya gotta earn it!
I'd just leave the handicap alone. After all, the OP says this is a fun league. So challenge yourselves to meet the level that the bar has been reset to.
--------------------
Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, but it still holds the universe together.
Some days you're the bug some days you're the windshield.
Post by: JOE FALCO on June 17, 2010, 09:14:26 AM
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones
Post by: Stan on June 17, 2010, 09:31:56 AM
Post by: rvmark on June 17, 2010, 09:32:35 AM
I agree with Joe, reread the post as he was talking about handicap being 100% of his average.
Mark
Post by: Jesse James on June 17, 2010, 09:45:53 AM
Thanks for pointing that out guys.
--------------------
Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, but it still holds the universe together.
Some days you're the bug some days you're the windshield.
Post by: storm making it rain on June 17, 2010, 10:05:42 AM
here''''s an example with a 90% of 220 scenario (and lets say that this league has individual match points)
bowler 1 - 180 avg 36 hdcp
bowler 2 - 225 avg 0 hdcp
bowler 2 shoots 675 series (exactly his average)
bowler 1 would have to shoot almost 30 pins over his average to win the point!!
how is that fair to the lower average bowler that his opponent had an "average" night, he bowled well over his average and he still loses?
ive been thinking about this over the years, and wouldnt it be all equal if it were 100% of 300? wouldnt that put everyone on an even level and then it would be whichever team had the best night over their average?
maybe im talking stupid but somehow it makes sense to me
Edited on 6/17/2010 10:07 AM
Edited on 6/17/2010 10:07 AM
Post by: Gazoo on June 17, 2010, 10:08:14 AM
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Post by: slimjuggalo2002 on June 17, 2010, 10:22:27 AM
quote:
Low average bowlers bowl under average far more often than do high average bowlers which makes the "not fair" agrument nonsense. The high average bowlers win a majority of the time, but only remember the 1 or 2 times they lose and not the 8 or 9 times they win. Handicap only gives an unfair advantage to those who misuse it.
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
I am not sure if your arguments are true. Have you seen data that supports your statement? I have always thought that the handicap was set at 80% or 90% due to the fact that is much easier for a 175 average bowler to pick up another spare or two, or carry another brooklyn strike than it was for a 225 average bowler to throw a longer streak of strikes.
The 100% handicap calculation does make everything technically fair, but as a higher average bowler, I would never bowl in that league. It would seem to negate all of the practice I have to put into the sport and the money I spend to keep my equipment up to date.
--------------------
Go Buckeyes!!!
Post by: Zanatos1914 on June 17, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
--------------------
2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare
Post by: sevenpin63 on June 17, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
I am not b!tching about the handicap, I never was. In fact when they voted it in I was just going to go with it, and see how next season turns out. I took it as a challenge.
The only reason I was asking is because my other teammates were complaining saying "this is not fair." I was just asking for your opinion to see what the feeling is on this handicap issue.
I will just try to get them to not make stink about this when are league starts up again this fall, and let the year play out and see were we stand.
Thanks for all your input
--------------------
DON'T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
Post by: JOE FALCO on June 17, 2010, 04:52:19 PM
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones
Post by: shelley on June 17, 2010, 10:23:26 PM
it's nice and refreshing to see an elite bowler who doesn't pooh-pooh the handicap system entirely.
SH
Post by: charlest on June 17, 2010, 10:33:33 PM
quote:
Some of you guys are taking this the wrong way.
I am not b!tching about the handicap, I never was. In fact when they voted it in I was just going to go with it, and see how next season turns out. I took it as a challenge.
The only reason I was asking is because my other teammates were complaining saying "this is not fair." I was just asking for your opinion to see what the feeling is on this handicap issue.
I will just try to get them to not make stink about this when are league starts up again this fall, and let the year play out and see were we stand.
Thanks for all your input
--------------------
DON'T TEMPT THE BOWLING GODS
Oh? Okay, sorry. Most of us thought you were also upset over the "unfairness" of this. Yes, please make them understand so in the future they will be more comfortable with "handicap" and understand its place.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Mighty Buffalo on June 18, 2010, 08:23:52 AM
My Saturday night league started this a few years ago because of a sub that was there every week that averaged about 235, and whatever team he bowled with would dominate and win by a landslide each week.
Some were confused by it at first, but after the first couble of weeks people got used to it and realized it is a fairer system than the high average bowlers getting the free pins.
--------------------
Let in the DOGS - I've got a HAMBONE for them!
To all the haters, get over it!