Post by: Nicanor on March 13, 2009, 12:55:52 AM
Has any of that savings been passed on to us the consumer?
I don't think so.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: jls on March 13, 2009, 09:04:18 AM
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jls
Post by: Phoneman on March 13, 2009, 09:09:40 AM
Post by: chitown on March 13, 2009, 09:23:52 AM
How can the United States compete with that? Easy, increase the import tax to an amount that off sets the cost of labor. Make it more profitable to manufacture in the United States rather than out of the country.
Post by: azguy on March 13, 2009, 09:45:24 AM
quote:
How can the United States compete with that? Easy, increase the import tax to an amount that off sets the cost of labor. Make it more profitable to manufacture in the United States rather than out of the country.
Good idea but then, that country, would increase import taxes for the goods from us to them as well. Just as the unions want more money, then the cost of a car goes up. It's a circle. Some savings may well have been eaten up on shipping back to the uS, hard to say.
Not arguing about cheaper labor/cost to make a ball should have seen a small drop in US prices but it seems to always line to pockets of the top brass, seems to me.
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
Post by: pin-chaser on March 13, 2009, 11:01:59 AM
BTW, since the company in question is US based, they would not have to have a import tax anyway.
Post by: sdbowler on March 13, 2009, 11:58:27 AM
quote:
The United States should pass laws to increase the tax on imported goods so as to off set the cost of labor. It's impossible for a company that resides in the United States to compete with the labor wages of Mexico or China. For example, let's say union scale for a factory worker in the United States is 20 dollars per hour and non union scale is 12 dollars per hour. In Mexico that same worker is getting 5 dollars and hour if their lucky! In China that same worker is getting 10 dollars per day of work.
How can the United States compete with that? Easy, increase the import tax to an amount that off sets the cost of labor. Make it more profitable to manufacture in the United States rather than out of the country.
In my eyes the unions are PART of the problem with companies going out of the USA to do business. I am not saying they are completely at fault but they share the blame. I work for a company that would rather close its doors instead of dealing with a union.
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Kyle
Post by: Pozz on March 13, 2009, 12:10:56 PM
Post by: Monster Pike on March 13, 2009, 01:20:56 PM
But the bright side was it was heavily discounted so they didn't make top dollar on it.--------------------
"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: Pinbuster on March 13, 2009, 01:37:59 PM
The cheaper labor might have given them less than $5 per unit savings particularly once additional transportation costs are added in.
For a company that is probably on the brink of bankruptcy making a couple extra dollars per ball could be the difference between surviving or not.
If they offered the exact same ball, one made in Mexico and one made in the USA, but the USA ball cost $5 more would you buy the USA ball?
I bet most of the bottom price feeders on the internet would buy the Mexico ball.
I don’t agree with them moving to Mexico, much the same way I feel about Lind’s moving. But Americans constant search for the bargain has driven companies to find the cheapest supply chain.
Post by: bowlerdawg on March 13, 2009, 01:43:04 PM
quote:
I refuse to buy B since the move. They lost sales to my wife, and two son's also.
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________________________________________________
There is more to bowling than just knocking down pins.
Never argue with an idiot!
The spectators won't know who is who.
900 Global Break is my 'new guy' ball.
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I'm your huckleberry
Post by: KingofKings696 on March 13, 2009, 02:05:03 PM
Post by: sdbowler on March 13, 2009, 02:06:07 PM
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Kyle
Post by: OddBalls on March 13, 2009, 02:12:07 PM
Good move? Maybe, maybe not.
Neccesary move? Definately.
I also haven't matched up with anything lately coming off those casting machines. I punched up a Smash Zone, but only threw it on 1/2 a game on a broken down THS that the Sahara was too much for.
Just maybe it's the lane conditions, but I personally haven't seen the versitily that BigB was known for since the move south of the boarder. The new covers, for me anyways, have been less than impressive.
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Inverted 1 and Dead Flush are my Evil Twins...
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 13, 2009, 02:16:21 PM
quote:
+1 Grande B no masquote:
I refuse to buy B since the move. They lost sales to my wife, and two son's also.
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________________________________________________
There is more to bowling than just knocking down pins.
Never argue with an idiot!
The spectators won't know who is who.
900 Global Break is my 'new guy' ball.
--------------------
I'm your huckleberry
Fixed.
--------------------
JAT Junior Amateur Tour
Robb's Pro Shops: Bakersfield, California
Rob Stone Supporters of America!
Post by: CoachLefty on March 13, 2009, 02:17:07 PM
Do you guys buy shirt that are made in China? They still make shirt in America you know. The only thing that i have noticed as far as price goes, is the availability of blems and 2nds have increased, making those balls cheaper. I personally like the longer pin balls, they allow me more options for drilling. I have heard that the Muskie factory was a dump anyway.
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Go Balls Deep
Lefty
Post by: applegam on March 13, 2009, 02:32:08 PM
As as far as all of this tax talk. Have you not heard of NAFTA?
Post by: on March 13, 2009, 02:36:58 PM
That would leave one less major manufacturer out of the loop, and one step closer to one (or two) factories having a "monopoly" on the industry. Let's suppose that happened. Do you think that one company would lower their prices? The opposite would happen. They could charge whatever they wanted because they wouldn't have any real competition. And you all would be buying them at the higher price - even off the internet - because those sites would also have to pay the higher prices.
EVERY COMPANY IN THE WORLD EXISTS TO MAKE A PROFIT. If they don't they won't stay open very long. Quit complaining that this company (or that company) tries to stay competitive, by not paying someone between $25-$45 per hour to make a bowling ball.
Brunswick is still headquartered in Michigan. They pay U.S. taxes. Their raw materials come from the U.S.A. There are plenty of other countries out there, in addition to America, that can produce a quality product.
Look in your closet. Read the labels. Look at your spare ball. Many are made in China. Look at your bowling shoes, bowling bag, etc. Unless your bag is a KR (or Brunswick) it was likely made overseas. Get over it, and get used to it. This is a world-wide economy, not just a U.S. economy. Those days are gone, like it or not.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: chitown on March 13, 2009, 05:18:15 PM
quote:quote:
The United States should pass laws to increase the tax on imported goods so as to off set the cost of labor. It's impossible for a company that resides in the United States to compete with the labor wages of Mexico or China. For example, let's say union scale for a factory worker in the United States is 20 dollars per hour and non union scale is 12 dollars per hour. In Mexico that same worker is getting 5 dollars and hour if their lucky! In China that same worker is getting 10 dollars per day of work.
How can the United States compete with that? Easy, increase the import tax to an amount that off sets the cost of labor. Make it more profitable to manufacture in the United States rather than out of the country.
In my eyes the unions are PART of the problem with companies going out of the USA to do business. I am not saying they are completely at fault but they share the blame. I work for a company that would rather close its doors instead of dealing with a union.
--------------------
Kyle
I'm for unions but will say that not all unions are good.
When a company moves to Mexico to save on labor it's not just because of union wages in the United States. Wether it's union or non union we still can't compete with slave labor wages.
I obviously don't have all the answers but the U.S.A needs to level the playing field. NAFTA needs to be fixed!
If other country's sell 5 million autos in the United States then they should take 5 million of ours. If we don't change the way we think we will lose all of our manufacturing jobs.
The biggest reason companies go overseas is to save on labor costs. Like I said before, the U.S.A can't compete against slave labor wages. Union or non union doesn't really matter because both make a lot more than what other companies pay their workers.
A non union shoe factory worker in the United States makes 10 dollars an hour. A obviously non union shoe factory worker in China makes 10 dollars a day! How can we compete against that? The only solution would be to off set that cost with taxes on imported goods! This is just an example.
Edited on 3/13/2009 5:28 PM
Post by: Krakken on March 13, 2009, 05:29:32 PM
quote:
i think the extra savings were for us and them. i think they will use the money for product development and things like that so they earn more money and we get better bowling balls.
Now that is an optimistic view. They do product development for their margin not to give you better products.
Unions in the US are the problem. The auto industry is a prime example. It is falling apart in no small part because you are paying someone $40 an hour to bolt seats into cars. Not saying that isn't a pain in the butt, but consider most police officers are getting less than half of that.
Costs are sky high and that is why the auto industry is moving operations.
Unions were needed back in the day when there was little government oversight. Now the companies couldn't shaft the workers because the government would be asked to step in
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: KingofKings696 on March 13, 2009, 07:20:00 PM
I drive a 73 Mustang... SO yes my car is 100% American, thank you and have a nice day!
Post by: Nicanor on March 13, 2009, 08:24:45 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: on March 13, 2009, 08:36:47 PM
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/multimedia/player/index.php?id=1189
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: JessN16 on March 13, 2009, 08:45:07 PM
Ebonite? Still here. Storm? Still here. The company that eventually emerged as 900Global? Here and making good stuff. And the smaller companies are all still in business, and we just added one (Motiv).
Don't tell me "We moved out of the USA to be able to compete," when 100 percent of your competition is U.S.-based. The first company to move out of the country doesn't move out to "be able to compete." It moves out to make a buck -- or, in Brunswick's case, I suspect cover for losses in the boating and billiards arms of the business, but that's just a guess.
The quality factor is also a concern, but I have not seen that be a problem in my personal experience. I do, however, know a couple of shops who claim otherwise.
And I'm not against foreign companies. I have four cars in my yard, not one was made here. My problem is with someone pi**ing down my leg and telling me it's raining.
Jess
Post by: on March 13, 2009, 09:20:41 PM
You claim to not have issues against foreign countries, and that you buy foreign-made products UNTIL it comes to your bowling balls.
What's the difference? Just because Brunswick was the first to move production outside the U.S. it doesn't mean they'll be the last. How can we know such a thing?
On a separate note: Everyone have a good night and a great weekend! I'm gone.
--------------------
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Edited on 3/13/2009 9:25 PM
Post by: DON DRAPER on March 13, 2009, 09:25:48 PM
clothing
shoes
cameras
tvs
stereos
camcorders
watches
cell phones
phones
cars
beer
computers
ink pens
pencils
i suspect many on this site are hypocritical in this regard-----that is why i recommended the self reflection i stated earlier. for myself, i will continue to buy the best product...period. regardless of where it is made.
Edited on 3/13/2009 9:26 PM
Post by: charlest on March 13, 2009, 09:28:23 PM
quote:
I hate to break the news to you all, but Brunswick is a corporation. This is not a non-profit organization. Corporations are in business to make money. Corporations that operate in the negative, don't last. If I'm not mistaken, most of their raw materials are U.S. made. Get over it.
As as far as all of this tax talk. Have you not heard of NAFTA?
BAYER which makes their resins is a German company. I wonder if the resin is made in the United States or Germany?
The same is true for BASF who makes resins for 900Global, AMF, Lane#1 and Ebonite. A German coporation. Are their resins made in the US or in Germany?
I don't know. I am asking.
I do know that Lanemasters imports their resins from Europe.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/13/2009 9:33 PM
Post by: charlest on March 13, 2009, 09:31:10 PM
quote:
What kind of cars do you guys drive? Are they 100% completely made in the USA?
No car has all of its parts made in the US. period.
quote:
Most cars have products that were made outside of the USA.
All cars have parts made in almost every country of the world.
quote:
I drive a 73 Mustang... SO yes my car is 100% American, thank you and have a nice day!
I sincerely doubt it. In fact, I can virtually guarantee it. Even back then Ford was a world-wide corporation.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Nicanor on March 13, 2009, 09:31:21 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Buddy Christ on March 13, 2009, 09:35:43 PM
quote:
I never said I only buy American. I'm just against a US company leaving the US to go to a country to take advantage of low wages, low priced real estate and little care for the enviornment taking away jobs from US citizens and not even passing back some savings to the US comsumer. Thats way different then saying I only buy American.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Exactly. All you guys really didn't cover the point. (Maybe you did. I don't really care to read before I reply.)
Are they trying to make up the cash from the move, or what? And, I did happen to read on how the products are of lesser (don't think that's a word) quality. So, what's with the price gouging? Are they taking financial advice from Exxon Mobil?
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=Sean=
"Got Christ?" -Catholicism Wow!
Post by: charlest on March 13, 2009, 09:38:40 PM
quote:
I never said I only buy American. I'm just against a US company leaving the US to go to a country to take advantage of low wages, low priced real estate and little care for the enviornment taking away jobs from US citizens and not even passing back some savings to the US comsumer. Thats way different then saying I only buy American.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
I agree. I wish there were some way an individual could make a difference in such a "war".
Someone brought up the issue of shirts. I've seen this for years. So many of the men's shirts we buy are made in China, Sri Lankaa, Viet Nam, India, etc. They vary in price from $10 to $35. They vary in content from 50%/50% cotton polyester to 100% cotton. The same shirt made in the US costs $85 - $250.
How many of you are going out of your way and digging WAY DEEP into your personal check book to buy that "plain" cotton/polyester shirt for $150 vs the $15 one you can get in Wal-Mart, Cabela's, K-Mart, J.C. Penney's, Sears, Macy's, Land's End, LL Bean, Eddie Bauer's etc.???
Honestly, how many?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: JessN16 on March 13, 2009, 09:48:59 PM
quote:
What's the difference? Just because Brunswick was the first to move production outside the U.S. it doesn't mean they'll be the last. How can we know such a thing?
Lane,
You're right, we don't know if/when other companies will move. I'm not anti-Brunswick. I just bought a Sidewinder and like it. Them moving out of the country won't stop me from buying their stuff.
Do I have to like it? No. And the reason I don't like it is the same reason I have a bad taste in my mouth for other companies in other industries -- I can't stand the PR B.S. that comes along with the decision. Just tell me the truth already. Don't flip out a press release filled with B.S., tell me why you're really doing what you do.
There are a lot of small towns in my home state that have been devastated by the flight of textile and timber to other countries. In some cases, unavoidable. In others, those companies moved product lines that had no real foreign competition -- they did it just to make 25 percent margin rather than 20 percent margin, but blamed it on other factors, and that I have a problem with.
Brunswick's bowling ball operations didn't need to go out of the country. Not only did they have no foreign competition, there are a bunch of other domestic companies apparently making a go of things right now without having to resort to such a move. But once one goes, it becomes easier for the second one to go, and the third.
That's why I said I would figure Brunswick's decision was triggered by what was going on in other areas of the company. It had to be. The next most plausible explanation is that Brunswick mismanaged its bowling business so badly that it couldn't make a profit.
I know of one VERY high-volume shop that, the day the decision to leave for Mexico was announced, quit pushing Brunswick stuff after years of doing so and began pushing other lines. I wonder how many other shops across the country did the same thing, and whether that meant Brunswick didn't reap the expected financial reward of moving operations after all.
We live in a free market economy and obviously, Brunswick is free to do what it wants. They won't ask my permission and don't need it. But I don't have to like it.
Jess
Post by: Nicanor on March 13, 2009, 09:50:12 PM
Jeff,
I know its not a perfect world and we will find deals where and when we can, but as I mentioned in the other post, would I even consider buying the shirt for $85 if the company closed shop in the US moved the company to China and still charged us the $85.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: nocarey on March 13, 2009, 10:34:07 PM
Post by: Krakken on March 14, 2009, 08:34:49 AM
Also why did Brunswick have to go back and re-do all the balls they released at the beginning of this season? Staffers were ready to jump ship. One of the ladies in fact did walk away from her contract and go with Storm/Roto as a free agent.
I also heard they are having a lot of trouble making the viz a ball line down there too.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: leftyinsnellville on March 14, 2009, 09:27:32 AM
If a company from Europe can come to the United States and compete, more power to them. Europeans make reasonable wages and have benefits that equal or exceed the benefits U.S. workers receive.
As far as China, Mexico, or any other country that doesn't have a decent minimum wage and does not have laws in place which guaratee basic benefits, I think we should cut off trade with them completely. We may lose the ability to import to those countries but as our trade defecit with those countries is so high I would venture to guess that the benefits would outweigh the cost.
Edited on 3/14/2009 9:28 AM
Post by: DON DRAPER on March 14, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
as far as buying a product simply because it's made in this country...that's illogical. i've stated this before. i have several watches made in switzerland. these are high quality, high dollar models. why should i give them up for an inferior product just because it's made it this country ?
Post by: Nicanor on March 14, 2009, 02:05:22 PM
I don't know if you read my post, but my orginal post was not about just buying American and my original post did not talk about the quality of the Brunswick bowling balls made in Mexico. It was not even about whether or not it made sense for Brunswick to make their bowling balls in Mexico to stay above water.
My post was that Brunswick made the move laying off many workers here in the US so they could go down to Mexico and save tons of money on labor, no enviornment control and the tax structure is much less using old technology and giving no break back to the US consumer. Thier prices are right up there with the rest of the big companies that are still here in the US.
Please stay on point.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Krakken on March 14, 2009, 02:22:53 PM
Brunswick moved because they couldn't deal wit hthe union at their plant.
Unions are killing american business.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes
Post by: charlest on March 14, 2009, 02:23:28 PM
quote:
Sleepy La Beef, Now thats funny.
Jeff,
I know its not a perfect world and we will find deals where and when we can, but as I mentioned in the other post, would I even consider buying the shirt for $85 if the company closed shop in the US moved the company to China and still charged us the $85.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Oh, I agree with you on that point, Barry.
With respect to Brunswick, possibly it's that they are making up in bowling euipment profit, for the losses in boating and billiards by the Mexico move. So you won't see any reduced prices in bowling balls. Also the distributors could have just sucked up the additional profit that Brunswick charged at the wholsale level. Remember at retail, we see the markup over what the distributors charge the pro shop!
Like the United States, and especially my good ole state of NJ, there are no spending savings at all ANYWHERE. They, politicians and accountants, only look for places to raise more taxes, when conditions arise, such as we see nowadays.
The politicians favorite "pork barrels" remain overflowing for their "friends" and relatives. Only the un-politically connected citizen suffers. Until unemployment reaches 40% or so, it will remain this way.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/14/2009 2:25 PM
Post by: DON DRAPER on March 14, 2009, 09:53:44 PM
Post by: burly on March 14, 2009, 10:11:58 PM
quote:quote:
How can the United States compete with that? Easy, increase the import tax to an amount that off sets the cost of labor. Make it more profitable to manufacture in the United States rather than out of the country.
Good idea but then, that country, would increase import taxes for the goods from us to them as well. Just as the unions want more money, then the cost of a car goes up. It's a circle. Some savings may well have been eaten up on shipping back to the uS, hard to say.
Not arguing about cheaper labor/cost to make a ball should have seen a small drop in US prices but it seems to always line to pockets of the top brass, seems to me.
--------------------
az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
rlbowlerspro@cox.net
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###############################################
check my profile for my stats
Post by: Atochabsh on March 15, 2009, 07:11:56 AM
quote:
I dunno, I just got the Max Zone drilled for $99.95 from my pro shop. Well under the 175+ that other balls cost. Don't look at the company, look at the pro shops!
That's cheaper then i can buy if for from my distrubutor. It is NOT the pro shops that are marking these balls from this particular manufacter up. The Mexican discount is not going to us.
The problem is that the Mexican made balls take longer to drill due to having to find the true CG and weights. You have to a lot of work at the beginning before you even map the ball to make sure you have the correct specs. We've seen a big drop in purchasing Brunswicks in general since they moved to Mexico.
I know probably a lot of shops don't bother, but if you want it legal or want to take it to Nationals then you have to go through the extra work.
Erin
Post by: DON DRAPER on March 15, 2009, 08:44:31 AM
Post by: Nicanor on March 15, 2009, 10:24:19 AM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 16, 2009, 05:35:18 PM
I don't disagree, but give me your opinion on my question. If a company in the US up and leaves and goes to another country, in this case Mexico, for financial reasons, labor, enviornment, taxes and more, but does not pass on any savings to the US consumer,, wouldn't that kinda make you not want to buy their product? Its not a company that originated in a country making clothes or whatever.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 16, 2009, 09:32:26 PM
BUT I DON'T.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Steven on March 17, 2009, 11:40:31 AM
quote:
BUT I DON'T
Nicanor, I'm glad you don't. Not giving in is called integrity and being socially responsible. Our country would be a much better place if some companies showed more discipline and operational ethics.
I think what bothers many bowlers is why Brunswick had to move manufacturing outside the US. There are many ball manufacturers who operate efficiently and are able to make adequate profits manufacturing exclusively in the US. Why not Brunswick? No answer that comes to mind is flattering towards Brunswick Bowling operations.
Contrary to analogies presented, there are many consumer products where I have no choice but to buy foreign. If you're still watching an American manufactured TV, you're older than dirt and have no eye sight left. But when it comes to bowling equipment, I do have a choice, and it's going to be American made. Especially since from a quality and price perspective, you can do better domestically.
Post by: Nicanor on March 17, 2009, 12:36:28 PM
Thank you for the post. The orginal post was not about buying US made products only. I know today that would be nearly impossible. It was about a company that left the US because it was so much cheaper to make thier product in Mexico costing the US jobs and money and the cost of the product is still the same to US citizens. Thats what bothers me.
When a major toy company moved to Mexico to make their toys, we saw almost an immediate lowering of the cost of their toys.
If it were reasonable, people should buy UC made products or products that has some interest in the product even if its just assembly like some cars or car parts. But that just my opinion.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 17, 2009, 12:50:03 PM
quote:How in the world is that relevant to this discussion? You're talking about something illegal, as opposed to something perfectly legal like Brunswick has done.
Yes, I own my own company and if I used the illegal immagrants at Home Depot and continued to charge $80 for labor, I'd make a killing. No taxes, insurance, no unemployment tax nothing. Pick them up, 8 1/2 hours later drop them off at the trolley.
BUT I DON'T.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
If I can operate cheaper out of Mexico than I can out of the US, why in the world wouldn't I want to make more profit by operating in the cheaper place? Sure it sucks for the guys in the USA who won't get to work for me, but how does that matter one iota to me? I'm the business owner, not the guy out on the street. It's not my responsibility to provide you with a job. It's my responsibilty to run my own company. If you don't want me moving my factory to Mexico, find a way for me to operate cheaper in America, or make it more expensive to operate out of the country. Either or. In that case, I have a legitimate reason to stay in the USA. Otherwise, I'm shooting myself in the foot by voluntarily lowering my profits just to stay in America.
Post by: Nicanor on March 17, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
Thinking like you do Dan, many if not all our companies especially the major car companies, really and major company in the US, should move their companies to Mexico. I say Mexico not to be racial, but because we share a border and it is cheaper for transportation then overseas like China. So it would be ok if all these companies moved to Mexico and still charge us the same price for all these products and not only cars, but many businesses. Not only that, but for the entire work force. Jobs that can't be sent to Mexico, we can bring them here. We can build a city in Mexico of legal dual citizenship Mexicans and bus them to southern CA and anywhere sharing a border and they can take our US dollars back to Mexico, be legal and still only pay about 1/4 to 1/2 of the labor costs, no union and probably no medical costs or much cheaper in Mexico..
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/17/2009 1:04 PM
Edited on 3/17/2009 1:05 PM
Post by: Nicanor on March 17, 2009, 06:47:15 PM
I keep on saying this post was not about "buy only US made products". I have said i understand that we almost have to buy items from the items from outside the US because that is life as we now know it.
But you guys defending Brunswick have not answered some of my questions as stated in my post just above this.
How would we feel if all of our major and medium companies moved to Mexico with their operations just across the border?
How would we feel if they built major neighborhoods just on the other side of our border in Mexico and got many of the dual citizenship workers or even those with just a work visa and bused them across the border to work in the fields that can not be moved to Mexico, like construction, all across the US/Mexico border taking away thousands of jobs that were once filled by US citizens just becaise its all about the mighty dollar?
Also, what about all the jobs lost to illegal immagrants hanging out like places like Home Depot getting work, not paying taxes etc. I am not anti hispanic legal immagrants, but to have illegal immmagrants take jobs away from legal immagrants and the US citizens just frustrates me.
Please, answer those questions.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/17/2009 7:11 PM
Post by: Steven on March 17, 2009, 07:12:41 PM
quote:
Please, answer those questions
Good luck on that request.
Nick, another thing that's lost on the 'hafta nafta' crowd are the hidden costs of shipping jobs to other countries. Those Brunswick workers become unemployed workers. Instead of having the opportunity to contribute to society, they become wards of society. They collect unemployment, then sometimes welfare and food stamps down the line. Now that's real money out of each of our pockets because Brunswick can't compete in America with the other successful ball manufacturers. Brunswick might not care, but I certainly do.
It's not realistic to expect Brunswick to lower prices because they now have lower cost labor. That's not the issue. I just wonder what's so fundamentally wrong with Brunswick that they can't cut in the country that provided for their beginnings.
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 17, 2009, 07:31:42 PM
quote:
CRD,
I don't disagree, but give me your opinion on my question. If a company in the US up and leaves and goes to another country, in this case Mexico, for financial reasons, labor, enviornment, taxes and more, but does not pass on any savings to the US consumer,, wouldn't that kinda make you not want to buy their product? Its not a company that originated in a country making clothes or whatever.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Absolutely, Nicanor!
I used to support Big B until they moved their production to Mexico! They made the move just to be more profitable, not to pass on the savings to the customer.
As a Canadian, I always supported USA made balls and always will. Also, as a Pro Shop owner / operator, I saw nothing but crap coming out of the Mexican Brunswick plant when they first started up. Sure...growing pains, but it was hard to return balls to Brunswick that had "slimy" coverstocks and balls with CG's that were mis-marked by over 3"....yes, that's right! I saw it first hand. You Big B supporters that like your Brunswick balls hand-polished by Julio Sanchez with his own fine Mexican spit......you carry on !!!!
I'll keep on supporting USA made products!
Thank you very much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: Easy10pins on March 17, 2009, 07:39:58 PM
quote:
Absolutely, Nicanor!
I used to support Big B until they moved their production to Mexico! They made the move just to be more profitable, not to pass on the savings to the customer.
Brunswick's job is to turn a profit. That is their priority. To make $$$. Any large or small business owner will tell you the same thing. If they say different, they are lying. My priority in opening my own business was to make money. Indirectly, in my pricing I did save my clients money but that was a result of my market analysis in that I could offer the same service for less $$$.
Brunswick wants happy customers. For every bowler claiming they won't buy BB because they moved to Mexico, there are 10 other satisfied customers who don't care where the balls are made. You can't satisfy everyone.
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The bowler formerly known as BrunsRod.
Solid 7 Pin?? 299 Game??!! WTF
Post by: 102101 on March 17, 2009, 07:53:26 PM
quote:
Dan, you understand perfectly.
Nicanor, you obviously don't know the business environment here in MI. The Single Business Tax deters companies from locating here and encourages them to move out of Michigan. It is a union state, thanks to the Big Three. I wonder if the retirees are glad Brunswick moved? Probably are due to the fact that Brunswick can be profitable which means they keep there pensions, unlike many other retirees in this state. Brunswick had a great run in Muskegon but guess what? Muskegon is a ghost town and Brunswick was one of the last holdouts. Bringing up ball companies that MERGED, operate in "right to work" states with no unions, have much lower labor costs, don't have the archaic tax system like Michigan doesn't hold water in my opinion. Bringing up companies like Lane Masters, Lane #1, and MoRich that don't even have their own plants is even less relevant. You never answered MY question. How much of a discount are you entitled to because Brunswick moved out of the states? By the way, did you know Caterpillar imports all of their crankshaft forgings for their diesel engines? They really don't come any more American than Cat. Are you going to stop buying goods that were shipped by trucks powered by Cat? I can't relate to your concern on this. Perhaps you would like protection laws like Canada has? There laws are so strict that a music CD must have 90% of it's content recorded in Canada to be sold there! I get asked at Customs when I go to Canadian engine manufacturers why my job can't be performed by Canadians. What does that or Brunswick's move have anything to do with capitalism and free enterprise? I'd like to hear your answer along with how much of a discount you feel you're entitled to? Thanks in advance.
Edited on 3/17/2009 5:46 PM
Edited on 3/17/2009 5:47 PM
Are you saying Brunswick had no say so, that is was all the unions fault? Brunswick was as much at fault even more so do to the fact that they were at the negotiating table with the union and agreed to the contract that they negotiated with the union. I am not a union supporter in any way shape or form but saying Brunswick had no choice or responsibility is ridiculous.
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102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: Nicanor on March 17, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
I'm not a politican but a realist. So many jobs have been lost in the US that its staggering, record breaking. If more and more companies decide to leave the US with no reprecussions (sp?) then it will continue to get worse. More and more people will be on a program wether or not unempoyment, welfare or whatever. Meanwhile these companies are taking our jobs and tax dollars to another country.
The country is already broke financially. So once unempoyment runs out then what. These people are going to feed their families. where is that money going to come from? The crime rate is going to go through the roof and with no prison system able to hold or fund them.
Am I wrong?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 12:25:20 AM
I drive a 69 Corvette, my wife drives a 2003 Corvette, our family car is a 2006 Cadilac SRX my work trucks are a 1996 Ford Expolrer and a 1999 Ford Expedition. I have a 2003 Harley road King that is a show bike and has been in magazines and on TV. I have a 2004 Road king that I use for riding and my wife has a 2004 Harley Screaming Eagle Deuce and my son has a 1995 Mustang convertable.
I have a handiman business where we do kitchen and bath remodels, decks, balconies and a lot of other handiman business. My electrican is also my assistant. When he works as an electrican I give him $300 a day and thats what I charge the customer. When he works as my asistant but not as an electrican I pay him $120 a day and I only usually work 6 hours a day. My electrican is a retired electrican and just likes to do part time work.
I have retired from the Navy after 31 years (five years ago) and I use the handiman business to help build my motorcycles and rebuild my 69 Corvette.
Did I miss something?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/18/2009 0:26 AM
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 18, 2009, 01:48:57 AM
It's all about price and profit. There isn't much profit in bowling balls. Like all other sales it is in the accessories.
Just because it was made here by someone making a lot more money don't mean better quality. Quality control means a better quality product.
Plus how many American companies are out there making electronics????(TVs, dvd players, alarm clocks, video games ect)
None. Why?
Because it would cost too much and the business making them would go under like our automobile industry, only quicker.
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" hand, don't step on the lanes without some "
Edited on 3/18/2009 8:29 AM
Post by: renoatpikeville on March 18, 2009, 01:49:32 AM
quote:
I did not side step any answers I believe.
I drive a 69 Corvette, my wife drives a 2003 Corvette, our family car is a 2006 Cadilac SRX my work trucks are a 1996 Ford Expolrer and a 1999 Ford Expedition. I have a 2003 Harley road King that is a show bike and has been in magazines and on TV. I have a 2004 Road king that I use for riding and my wife has a 2004 Harley Screaming Eagle Deuce and my son has a 1995 Mustang convertable.
I have a handiman business where we do kitchen and bath remodels, decks, balconies and a lot of other handiman business. My electrican is also my assistant. When he works as an electrican I give him $300 a day and thats what I charge the customer. When he works as my asistant but not as an electrican I pay him $120 a day and I only usually work 6 hours a day. My electrican is a retired electrican and just likes to do part time work.
I have retired from the Navy after 31 years (five years ago) and I use the handiman business to help build my motorcycles and rebuild my 69 Corvette.
Did I miss something?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/18/2009 0:26 AM
I hope you issued him a 1099 or included him in your payroll and pay SS, Medicare and report Federal Withholding.
Along with any business taxes, sales and use tax, so on...permits with the state, county and city if applicable.
Post by: BeansProShop on March 18, 2009, 08:23:37 AM
quote:
I dunno, I just got the Max Zone drilled for $99.95 from my pro shop. Well under the 175+ that other balls cost. Don't look at the company, look at the pro shops!
Impossible to buy this ball and sell it for $99.95 with out losing money. They cost more than that wholesale!!!! You were sold a blem dude or your shop needs to take a business course.....
Look at the manufacturer...Not the honest Pro Shops...
Beans
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www.beansproshop.com
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 National Sales Manager and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=beanssecretsauce Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!
Post by: 102101 on March 18, 2009, 09:29:35 AM
quote:
102101,
Exactly where did I say the unions were at fault. One of the factors to be sure, but the anti-business climate and legislature in Michigan is the primary cause.
Nicanor,
You sure did side-step those questions about your business, car, pay rate of your workers, etc. Than you give a dire warning to Brunswick fans about quality of balls. Give me a break! Tells me all I need to know. Took a while to uncover your hidden agenda but I knew we'd get to it sooner or later.
Stevie,
I told you before, I ain't biting on anything you say to try to spur another argument.
Just wondered because of the statement you made about Brunswick retirees and their pensions, and the big three comment. So your thoughts Brunswick had no responsibility on the reasons they had to move?
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102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 09:40:07 AM
I see those who want to respond for the most part doesn't want to respond to the big questions. If Brunswick followed Motel (was that the major tou company they went to Mexico, and we continued to lose more and more companies to Mexico, what would happen to the US? What would happen if all the car manufactuerer companies folded in the US and moved thier plants to Mexico?
I realize that through the years we have lost so much of our electronic industry. If we keep this up we won't have much of an employment base and what will will have left is manual labor done by illegal immagrants and we will be trying to collect welfare.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/18/2009 10:03 AM
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 18, 2009, 09:42:45 AM
quote:quote:
Absolutely, Nicanor!
I used to support Big B until they moved their production to Mexico! They made the move just to be more profitable, not to pass on the savings to the customer.
Brunswick's job is to turn a profit. That is their priority. To make $$$. Any large or small business owner will tell you the same thing. If they say different, they are lying. My priority in opening my own business was to make money. Indirectly, in my pricing I did save my clients money but that was a result of my market analysis in that I could offer the same service for less $$$.
Brunswick wants happy customers. For every bowler claiming they won't buy BB because they moved to Mexico, there are 10 other satisfied customers who don't care where the balls are made. You can't satisfy everyone.
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The bowler formerly known as BrunsRod.
Solid 7 Pin?? 299 Game??!! WTF
You keep on believe that! As long as Brunswick is around they will always have their supporters...absolutely! Like I said, I see things first hand where most don't.....I've been in the pro shop business for a long time! Trust me.....Brunswick is going by the wayside compared to the others. I use many brands, although most of my newer stuff is Lane #1, but I can tell you without a doubt that the dominant brand out there is Storm / Roto-Grip !! And that will continue....not only because are they putting out a great product, but because their exposure is massive on the PBA Tour.
The fact is this......Brunswick has made some bad business decisions in the past which forced them to lower the cost of manufacturing to be more competitive. But with the quality of their product NOT being what it was, they are on a slow train heading to extinction....IMO!
Hell, I still have some old USA made Brunswick balls that I've thrown numerous 300 games with....and I'll never part with them because they still work and they're truly awesome balls!
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"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 18, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
quote:Hardly. I actually hate Brunswick equipment. The last Brunswick ball I threw was an Ambush that left more flat 10s than anything I've ever thrown.
Sorry Dan, but you are lost and must be like one of those Lane 1 junkies but just trying to defend Brunswick.
I'm just looking at the situation from the point of view of business, not the point of view of being pro-American. It is in Brunswick's best interest to have the lowest production costs possible, and to sell the balls for as much profit as possible. Why should they lower the selling price if it results in making less overall profit?
And furthermore, why should they care about keeping jobs in America? That's not their concern. Their concern is to sustain as much profit as possible for as long a time as possible. They felt moving to Mexico was the best way to do this. If ANY company feels this way and can make the numbers work, it's in that company's best interest to move, isn't it? Who cares about giving jobs to the American public and so forth? I'm not going to start a company just to be nice enough to create jobs for Americans. I'm going to start a company to make money, period.
And I still am mystified by your constant references to hiring illegal immigrants to work for your company in the USA. How is that related to this issue? Hiring illegal immigrants is illegal. Moving your business to Mexico and having Mexican nationals work there is legal. That is a HUGE difference from what the rest of us are talking about!
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 10:02:36 AM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 18, 2009, 10:05:46 AM
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 11:30:18 AM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Verbs on March 18, 2009, 11:44:31 AM
Back to the topic heading.
Let me start by asking a couple of questions.
Since all of the automotive companies have moved a portion of their manufacturing outside of the U.S., has the price of a car went down?
Since Dexter moved all over their shoe making to Asia, has the price for a pair of high performance shoes decreased?
Companies do not move some or all of their manufacturing outside of the U.S. to lower the price to consumers. They do it to show/increase their profits.
Being that I was employed by Brunswick during the transition, I have a bit more insight o this than most of you.
Brunswick Consumer Products did not move production to Mexico to INCREASE profits. They moved manufacturing to Mexico to try and SHOW a profit. From 2003-2006, Brunswick was the most popular high performance ball line in the world. During that time, Brunswick Consumer Products was, at best, a break even part of the Brunswick Corporation. We were operating with a skeleton staff of marketing and sales. So what other area can you cut costs in? Manufacturing.
The decision to move manufacturing to Mexico did not come without some very heated debate between Corporate and Consumer Products management.
At the time, moving production to Mexico was the best solution to try and show a profit. Which is what you get into and stay in business for. Once you do not show a profit for a period of time, you go out of business. Which was/is within the realm of possibility.
Just remember to ask yourself this question when some of you bash Brunswick.
Your American brand (not made, BRAND) of car. Why did you buy it? To support an American company.
Brunswick is STILL an American based company. Headquartered in Lake Forest, Ill. With the bowling division located in Muskegon, MI.
The coverstocks are still provided by American companies (Ashland for Polyester & Bayer for Urethane). The equipment is engineered & tested in Muskegon.
And as many of you know, if anyone has a beef with Brunswick, it would be me. I choose to take the high road because of the friends (Americans) I have left there that I want to succeed.
So by choosing not to support Brunswick because of the moving manufacturing to Mexico, you could be costing even more Americans their job.
Sorry for the rant.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 12:08:14 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: JustRico on March 18, 2009, 12:19:40 PM
Brunswick has not done away with there R and D dept. They have 2 of the smartest/sharpest guys in the industry. Every ball company goes through the ups and downs, it is a very cyclical business. 3 years ago Brunswick had the best line up and a lot of the independants on tour were throwing Brunswick balls. Now it's Storms turn. How many Ebonite brand balls do you see on the shows? And they have over half of the market.
It did suck when Brunswick made the decision to move the ball plant. As Verbs mentioned, I was there as well during this transition and trust me, it was not an easy decision. But they were going to move the plant and is was not like we had input in where it was going. But if they did not make the move, another couple of hundred Americans would have been out of work. They also did not anticipate the move lingering this long, in the buyers eyes.
Every company rebounds. As I was once told, you always want to bowl well between the slumps. Ball companies just try and survive through the slumps, until their next great ball comes along.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 12:57:26 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/18/2009 1:08 PM
Post by: Steven on March 18, 2009, 12:57:29 PM
You're current in that no ball company is likely to be 'prosperous' right now. In general, few major companies of any type are experiencing boom times. Still, even with cuts, Storm and Ebonite appear to be making a manufacturing go of it in the USA. I've always wondered how Brunswick, especially with their period of popularity, could experience problems to the degree that they were forced to move manufacturing out of the country. It does suggest that even with a high demand product, there are severe management issues within the company. When that's the case, even short term 'outsourcing' moves like offshoring manufacturing just minimally stop the bleeding.
Professionally, I've been on all sides of the outsourcing spectrum I've worked for a major IT outsourcer, and I've managed major outsourcing contracts from the customer side. The bottom line is that outsourcing is corporate 'fools gold' for squeezing profits and remaining viable. I'm luck enough to work for a company where upper management understands this, and works toward long term strategies that maximize the use of domestic resources.
There are in fact major hidden social costs associated with corporations moving operations to foreign countries. I don't want to support any company that, if managed properly, could be profitable manufacturing domestically.
Post by: JustRico on March 18, 2009, 01:08:43 PM
The reason for Mexico, the boat division (BayLiner) had already in place a manufacturing plant in the area that the ball manufacturing plant is and was doing well. Granted this was 2-3 years ago, when the boat division was prospering and before Katrina & the current down turn in the economy.
Steven, you are correct in much of what you posted. Time will tell if it is merely slowing the bleeding.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: OddBalls on March 18, 2009, 01:11:38 PM
Combine the upgrade in the equipment, the cost of the land/labor in Mexico, I'd say the decision was based on the company investing in it's future as a leader in the market.
JMHO...
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Inverted 1 and Dead Flush are my Evil Twins...
Edited on 3/18/2009 1:12 PM
Post by: Nails on March 18, 2009, 01:31:59 PM
quote:
The coverstocks are still provided by American companies (Ashland for Polyester & Bayer for Urethane). The equipment is engineered & tested in Muskegon. Sorry for the rant.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Not to nit pick, but Bayer is a German company. They have many plants, but the headquarters are in Leverkusen, Germany.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: Verbs on March 18, 2009, 04:41:30 PM
quote:quote:
The coverstocks are still provided by American companies (Ashland for Polyester & Bayer for Urethane). The equipment is engineered & tested in Muskegon. Sorry for the rant.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Not to nit pick, but Bayer is a German company. They have many plants, but the headquarters are in Leverkusen, Germany.
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Telling it like it is.
I stand corrected.
Quite honestly though, how many of us on here knew that before you mentioned it?
I had forgotten about that.
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Larry Verble
Edited on 3/18/2009 4:57 PM
Post by: Strider on March 18, 2009, 05:37:53 PM
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: Monster Pike on March 18, 2009, 07:49:38 PM
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: Nicanor on March 18, 2009, 08:20:11 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Mike Austin on March 18, 2009, 11:38:17 PM
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Post by: Nicanor on March 19, 2009, 08:50:46 AM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/19/2009 9:33 AM
Post by: Crankenstein300 on March 19, 2009, 10:58:57 AM
quote:
How thick are the B coverstock's?
I recently won a Storm Virtual Gravity in a raffle. When we punched it up, we were amazed at the thickness of the coverstock. It was a good 5/8" before the filler was found.
Good luck finding that in a Mexican made ball!
My Mexican made Red Zone is 1/2" thick. The same as the two Hammers I have and thicker than the San Antonio made Track Desert Heat I have.
Not sure what you are trying to prove here with that extra 1/8"
Post by: Verbs on March 19, 2009, 02:48:00 PM
You have a Ford F-250. Which is assembled in the U.S. But 35%-40% of the parts of that vehicle are made outside the U.S. But you are supporting an American based company.
Brunswick bowling balls are made from American made raw materials, on processing equipment made in Grand Rapids, MI USA. Designed & tested by Americans in Muskegon, MI USA. And Brunswick's corporate offices are in Lake Forest, Ill. With the bowling division located in Muskegon, MI.
And for Nicanor, Brunswick's decision to move manufacturing to Mexico was made WAY before there was any kind of bailout/stimulus/incentive package's available. From my recollection, the state of Michigan offered little in the way of incentives to keep Brunswick from moving manufacturing to Mexico. I could be wrong on this, but that is what I recall.
And, as I stated previously, Brunswick's move to Mexico was NOT to improve/increase profits. The move was made so there is a possibility to MAKE A PROFIT.
Brunswick, or any other company for that matter, is in business to make money. At that time of the decision to move Brunswick manufacturing to Mexico, Corporate felt that moving the manufacturing to Mexico was the best option, at that time, for Brunswick to continue in the bowling ball business. Without the move, it is VERY POSSIBLE that Brunswick would have stopped manufacturing bowling balls altogether. So while it is sad that approx. 100 Americans lost their job, it would have been even a sadder situation if over 200 Americans would have lost their jobs.
In conclussion, if you are not buying Brunswick because you don't think they match up to your game, that's fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But of you are not buying Brunswick because they moved manufacting to Mexico, just remember, you could be costing even more AMERICANS their jobs.
Verbs
quote:
Of course not everything produced is going to be made in USA. But I try my best when I have options to buy the American made product. Clothing is hard to find made in US. But my Ford F-250 is not only made in US, it is a US owned company. Now there may be parts of it made overseas. I can't help that. I can only control the stuff I do know. I look at labels every time I buy, & as long as the price isn't too high, I'll choose made in US every time. So, that means I'll never buy another Brunswick ball as long as there's US made bowling balls. Sorry, but that's just me & my "business decision".
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"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
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Larry Verble
Post by: sdbowler on March 19, 2009, 04:58:12 PM
Would you rather have one less company to use?
Would you be saying the same stuff if Ebonite or Storm moved to Mexico?
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Kyle
Post by: Nicanor on March 19, 2009, 05:14:57 PM
How would all the people in the Detroit area if the big three moved their operations to Mexico?
I realize the stimulus/bailout initiative today has nothing to do with Brunswick's move to Mexico. But thats ok because its corporation and its a company trying to stay afloat or increase their profit margin. So answer the question that all you Bruswick supporters are elluding "What if many of our US companies started to move thier business out of the US?"
I try to support american products the best I ca realizing that automobiles are never 100% made in the US. but we should do all we can to keep our businesses here in the US.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Dannyboy on March 19, 2009, 05:49:16 PM
Honda has 4 plants in my state. They employ my family, neighbors and friends. Its better for my local economy to buy a Honda rather than a Chrysler. Not to mention the fact that Chrysler builds an utter turd of a car, and Honda's run forever.
Post by: jls on March 19, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
quote:
What about when non-US companies move operations here? This is a global economy, we're seeing it more and more.
Honda has 4 plants in my state. They employ my family, neighbors and friends. Its better for my local economy to buy a Honda rather than a Chrysler. Not to mention the fact that Chrysler builds an utter turd of a car, and Honda's run forever.
Good points sir. And BTW, Lane one is made in Texas, which will soon be Mexcio.
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jls
Post by: 102101 on March 19, 2009, 06:05:38 PM
quote:
The point is I would be saying that for any company that left the US to go to a country like Mexico just to impreove their profit margin.
How would all the people in the Detroit area if the big three moved their operations to Mexico?
I realize the stimulus/bailout initiative today has nothing to do with Brunswick's move to Mexico. But thats ok because its corporation and its a company trying to stay afloat or increase their profit margin. So answer the question that all you Bruswick supporters are elluding "What if many of our US companies started to move thier business out of the US?"
I try to support american products the best I ca realizing that automobiles are never 100% made in the US. but we should do all we can to keep our businesses here in the US.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Very well stated Nicanor, obviously the more companies that move their operations and or manufacturing overseas or out of the country cost Americans jobs. When Americans lose their job they are unable to purchase anything but bare necessities and at times even that is tough to do. Sure they have unemployment benefits coming but what happens if there are no jobs available when their benefits run out? They become a for lack of a better word become a burden on the welfare system,(don't get me started on welfare) all because no jobs are available. Some may say work is always available at McDonalds or Wal-Mart but when much of the population has to work at lower paying jobs they will be in the same situation of not being able to afford nothing but the bare necessities so business will be down at Wal-Mart & McDonalds also therefore leading to more layoffs. There is no doubt Brunswick is in business to make a profit, that is what being in business is about but at the same time poor management is what caused Brunswick to get into trouble and move to Mexico. It is pretty obvious that the more Americans that are working the stronger and healthier the economy is. The way I see it 900 Global and its brands, Storm and its brands, Ebonite and its brands, Visionary, Lane#1 or any other company that still employ American workers make for a stronger America. That in turn makes for a better situation for all Americans. That is just the tip of the iceberg one example to think about, what happens to communities and their infrastructure due to Americans being out of work. Sure there are times that everyone has to purchase things made in China or other places because there are no options, but in this case there are American companies that employ American citizens that produce great bowling equipment. The next company or corporation that moves to Mexico or overseas might have an effect on you or someone you know or care about. Think about it.
Edited for spelling
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/19/2009 6:10 PM
Post by: Nicanor on March 19, 2009, 07:10:35 PM
I keep this subject open and replying to it because I think the concept of this post is important.
Men and women about my age and older who are retired (I'm 54) might not see the ramifications of so many companies moving out of country.
Men and women who are younger about 18-26 might not see the problem of companies moving out of country.
But who really will feel it is the young man or woman from about 26-62 will feel it because they start having kids, kids growing out of clothes fast, eating more, driving cars, going to college and anything in between.
You already see how the government is restructing retirement plans. companies ar going to do the same if they even offer a retirement plan and if they do, you'll grovel most of your employment life so they don't get rid of you before you qualify for retirement or move the company out of country.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/19/2009 7:19 PM
Post by: Dannyboy on March 19, 2009, 07:15:37 PM
Post by: Nicanor on March 19, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
In the case of Japan though like I mentio9ned in another post, they have cross world shipping to add to thier cost of a car, plus the extremely high hourly wage not to mention that they have very little land for infrastructure.
Now you men and women who have young children and those who want children need to look way down the road about our work industry. Where will we be? As it is children are living longer and longer with their parents even sometimes after getting married. Many who could stand to live at home anymore are in the military.
So defend Brunswick and any company that wants to follow them out the country, but look down the road and fairly think where our economy is going to rebound if the jobs keep going away. You think Brunswick would have gone under, I think they would have restuctured, made great products to compete with the ball market still here in the US.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 19, 2009, 07:21:36 PM
Its great that your wife has a government retirement fund and I hope your 401K stays healthy. Now how many of us do you think are that lucky. how many of our children and grandchildren will be that lucky?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Dannyboy on March 19, 2009, 07:28:17 PM
But I've been saving 10% of my money in my 401(k) for 11 years now, once I got my first real job. 30 more years of saving and I'll have a nice nest egg. Its just the way things are.
Post by: Nicanor on March 20, 2009, 08:43:30 PM
Look at what you want, especially with our young. Where will their employment oppurtunities gonig to be if we don't do something to keep companies from jumping ship.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 12:08:50 AM
California's unemployment rate is up to 10.5% and San Diego County has an unemployment rate of 8.8 percent.
So continue to let those companies move out of country. We'll find another way to handle the lack of jobs.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/21/2009 9:41 AM
Post by: sdbowler on March 21, 2009, 12:08:32 PM
--------------------
Kyle
Post by: jls on March 21, 2009, 12:14:21 PM
quote:
There are things outthere causing unemployment other then companies moving out of the country. Good ol greed is causing a lot of problems in the US right now. Every single person thinks they should be getting paid more then they are. Take for example the woman getting a divorce that is saying $53K a week is not enough. That is more then a lot of families make a year. I have said plenty of times that I hate the fact that Brunswick moved out of the country but what can I do about it. The few balls I buy a year I am sure they won't notice if I don't buy. The moved happened a couple of years ago. I think it is time to grow up and get over it.
--------------------
Kyle
Hey, most golf clubs are made in or near China. Have been made there since the mid 90's. Golfers don't seem to make an issue about it.
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jls
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 12:44:12 PM
Taylor Made is made here in CA, or at least one of their plants are. I'm not a golfer, so I don't know much about golf clubs.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/21/2009 12:48 PM
Post by: Monster Pike on March 21, 2009, 12:49:42 PM
--------------------
"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: jls on March 21, 2009, 01:12:52 PM
quote:
OK, I give up, the US ecomony isn't having a near complete meltdown and jobs are a plenty we're just looking for too much reimbursement for our labor. There really isn't a need for a stimulus package, let all those companies fold or move to Mexico and we'll still be fine, because we always adapt and we'll get through this. Let Ford, Chrysler and GM fold and the Hondas and the Toyotas can take over the auto industry. And I don't even live in lovely MI.
Taylor Made is made here in CA, or at least one of their plants are. I'm not a golfer, so I don't know much about golf clubs.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/21/2009 12:48 PM
Taylor made clubs are and have been made in China since at least 1995.
Each and every club I have of their's has had a made in China sticker on the bottom of the shaft. The very first set I noticed it on was the Burner Bubble driver. And that set came out in the mid 90's.
You can call the 800 number of any major golf club maker and simple has them, where their clubs are made. They will tell you.
So compared to the golf industry, bowling is all red white and blue, and as American as apple pie, hot dogs and the Cubs!!!
--------------------
jls
Post by: jls on March 21, 2009, 01:15:25 PM
quote:
Okay, I could be wrong, but Tour Edge is Headquartered right here in Batavia, IL right down the road from me. And last I checked, they manufactured golf clubs here also. I own a set of Bazooka's Jmax.
--------------------
"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
They more then likely assemble them there. But the heads and shafts are made elsewhere. The only company that I know of that makes SOME of their clubs here, is Ping.
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jls
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 01:22:33 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Steven on March 21, 2009, 01:24:36 PM
quote:
There is no doubt Brunswick is in business to make a profit, that is what being in business is about but at the same time poor management is what caused Brunswick to get into trouble and move to Mexico. It is pretty obvious that the more Americans that are working the stronger and healthier the economy is. The way I see it 900 Global and its brands, Storm and its brands, Ebonite and its brands, Visionary, Lane#1 or any other company that still employ American workers make for a stronger America. That in turn makes for a better situation for all Americans.
102101: Excellent analysis. I feel there is still hope when reading thoughts such as those above.
Verbs gave some great input, and I'd hate to think of the 200 or so remaining US based Brunswick Bowling employees losing their jobs. Brunswick has some talented 'in the trench' folks remaining. They're not the issue -- it's the inept management that got them into this mess. I still don't see any signs that upper company management is committed to bowling with the same passion as most of the rest of the industry.
This thread came to mind when I was in my local shop the other day. The area Brunswick rep was making his rounds (a good thing), and I saw him go over to one of the Brunswick balls on display and remove the little round "Made in Mexico" sticky. A company should never be ashamed of their operating processes to the point where things need to hidden. It's sad when the employees feel that they have to cover for the snafus of those above them.
Edited on 3/21/2009 1:30 PM
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 01:30:33 PM
--------------------
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: jls on March 21, 2009, 01:34:57 PM
quote:
I'm sorry but according to Taylor Made's website, their North American headquarters is in Carlsbad California and I know they do/did make golf clubs there becaus someone that worked for me in the Navy worked there part time in 2004.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Every Taylormade club I have owned since 1995, has had a made in China sticker on it.
Again, they do assemble the clubs there. But the parts are made in China.
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jls
Post by: sdbowler on March 21, 2009, 03:08:01 PM
quote:quote:
I'm sorry but according to Taylor Made's website, their North American headquarters is in Carlsbad California and I know they do/did make golf clubs there becaus someone that worked for me in the Navy worked there part time in 2004.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Every Taylormade club I have owned since 1995, has had a made in China sticker on it.
Again, they do assemble the clubs there. But the parts are made in China.
--------------------
jls
Much like the US auto companies. Many parts are from out of the country. Final assembly may take place in the US but many parts are from Canada, Japan, etc. While I was working for a credit card call center back in Sioux Falls they opened at least one possibly two call centers over in India. Many places that use call centers are going overseas as well for their help. Are you going to stop using credit cards that do this then? How about computer companies that have tech centers overseas? I have stated already that I hate Americans loosing jobs to people outside of the US but it is happening it is a fact of life. No matter what we do here it will not stop so continue to b!tch and moan about it.
--------------------
Kyle
Post by: BrunsNick on March 21, 2009, 03:17:43 PM
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: 102101 on March 21, 2009, 03:56:03 PM
quote:
I bought some poker table cup holders last week for $13, yeah they happened to be made in the USA by sheer randomness... I felt patriotic.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
I know there was some sarcasm in your statement Nick but good for you. You purchased products from a company that manufactures in the U.S.A. and employees Americans, that in turn will hopefully allow those Americans to purchase products in your proshop. Without their jobs they surely wouldn't be able to afford to purchase those items they buy from you.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: BrunsNick on March 21, 2009, 04:19:40 PM
Not so good for the American workers of Ebonite/C300(San Antonio)/Storm who have been laid off in the not so distant past.
Buy what you want, I'd throw and sell Brunswick equipment if I wasn't on staff. The durability and performance out of these new bowling balls is far and above beyond any other company.
Now pardon me while I roll up the sleeves on my Chinese made CK sweater while driving my new 100% Japanese made S2K, fueled by foreign oil to go home and watch my ridiculously large Sony TV.
Bowling is SMALL BUSINESS.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 05:04:54 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: 102101 on March 21, 2009, 07:45:05 PM
quote:
Yep, good for me!
Not so good for the American workers of Ebonite/C300(San Antonio)/Storm who have been laid off in the not so distant past.
Buy what you want, I'd throw and sell Brunswick equipment if I wasn't on staff. The durability and performance out of these new bowling balls is far and above beyond any other company.
Now pardon me while I roll up the sleeves on my Chinese made CK sweater while driving my new 100% Japanese made S2K, fueled by foreign oil to go home and watch my ridiculously large Sony TV.
Bowling is SMALL BUSINESS.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
There is a huge difference between losing your job because the company was sold and moved and being laid off due to lower sales caused by a slow economy compared to a company like brunswick that closed their plant and moved to Mexico. Do what you want Nick, but when so many Americans are out of work and they can't afford anything but the necessities then your proshop like many other businesses will be affected. Wait maybe the Mexicans employed by brunswick will come to your shop and purchase their equipment.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 21, 2009, 11:14:05 PM
The fact remains that many won't buy Brunswick balls anymore because they moved their production to Mexico....and they're entitled to their opinion.
As are those that love Brunswick equipment and will continue buying it.
There are merits to both sides, so let's just move on...shall we?????
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: Nicanor on March 21, 2009, 11:19:38 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: 102101 on March 22, 2009, 11:43:25 AM
quote:
You guys can continue to focus on the negative if you want. 10% unemployment? That means that 90% of the population still has a job! Nick's post was perfect in the way it illustrated the hypocrisy and ludicrousness of the American public ans they throw themselves to the ground and wail "what will we do, what will we do" as they lament the vanishing of the American way of life. Exactly what is vanishing? Do you have fuel for your vehicles? Do you have food on your table? Clothes on your back? I could go on and on but you get the point. UNLESS you are willing to run for office and try to make changes (before you get corrupted)or give it all up and go native and live off the land, you're just blowing smoke! I would love to hear from the most vociferous defenders of the American corporations staying here in the States no matter how much they are bleeding red ink to list the community outreach programs, food banks, and other VOLUNTEER groups that are in place to help the down-trodden, displaced american workers get by. I'm especially calling out 102101 on this.
Wanna check out a song that makes my point? Check out Dennis Leary's "I'm an Azzwhole". So very true.
Edited on 3/22/2009 7:20 AM
LOL Thank you CRD for your insight, for your information I am on the city council in my town and yes I do see and know first hand the effects of businesses packing up and leaving a community. Maybe you should check out the effects on a community before you "call someone out". You can continue to defend companies that move to other countries costing Americans their job and stick your head farther in the sand thinking the country has no problems, while those of us that care work on fixing the problems. End of conversation with you as you will just continue to throw jabs and insults.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/22/2009 11:58 AM
Edited on 3/22/2009 2:36 PM
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2009, 02:17:12 PM
quote:
and stick your head farther in the sand....
102101: LOL. Welcome to my world in interacting with CRD.
Outsourcing and offshoring have been happening for years, but with the current financial crisis, the effects will be even more painfully felt and affect and hit a larger spectrum of workers.
In the IT world within the Southern California area, I just heard last week that Sony Pictures is outsourcing to a company in India, and Kaiser Permanente to IBM (which will in turn sub-contract out of the US). This follows Warner Brothers Pictures announcing India outsourcing a few months back. That means possibly hundreds of jobs in the 75-100K range will disappear locally.
The irony is that many companies who jumped on the outsourcing bandwagon several years ago are now in the processing of taking the work back in. When you get beyond the hype and supposed cost savings, it's really a losing proposition when it comes to pulling it off. Unfortunately, these companies will have to learn the hard way. And the disruption to lives and careers of those displaced will in many cases be irreparable.
I wonder how many of those thrown on the street live in the Santa Clarita Valley and will no longer be buying balls from Nick anymore?
Post by: 102101 on March 22, 2009, 03:45:35 PM
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: jls on March 23, 2009, 10:24:07 AM
quote:
I just got done looking up Callaway golf clubs and they are also made in Carlsbad California and currently has job openings for 12. I'm sure they make golf clubs around the world, but they both still make clubs here in the US.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Sir, if you were to call callaway at 800-588-9836, they would tell you that MOST of their clubs, The iron heads, and driver heads, are made overseas. But most are assembled here in the US.
The same thing would be true with just about every major brand.
Every Taylor Club I own and Every Cleveland club I own, was made in China.
Even Ping now makes some of their models overseas, not all... some.
If you were to call Titleist, they would say they are made in the China theater.... in that area.
I believe the reason that this is not such a big deal to golfers is that many golfers either don't know this or care.
However Brunswick's move is widely know by just about all serious bowlers.
--------------------
jls
Post by: Nicanor on March 23, 2009, 10:29:38 AM
--------------------
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: jls on March 23, 2009, 11:49:10 AM
quote:
I don't golf so I don't know the particulars. I just know there is a Callaway and Taylor Made here in CA. So golf clubs are mostly made overseas. More jobs that left the US. Helps make my point.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Yes it does make your point. And my point is this. You know and I know that the reason things are made overseas is that the COST is lower. Therefore it only makes sense that these big golf companies make the parts for their clubs overseas. Now as for your friend that worked at Taylor or Callaway, Yes they do build the clubs there!!!!!! They take all the parts, iron heads, driver heads, etc, the shafts and the grips and assemble the clubs here.
Somewhere around 1998 or 1999, I was watching one of those programs like 20-20, or 48 hours. It was in the summer so there wasn't much on TV. The program was all about major brand golf clubs being made in China.
Now after watching this program, I decided to go look at my Taylor Ti driver, My Taylor Ti 11 driver. Because, no way my Taylors are made in China.... Ya right. I was floored when I looked at the bottom of the shaft and saw the little clear label that said, Made In China.
--------------------
jls
Post by: 102101 on March 23, 2009, 12:21:29 PM
quote:
Really 102101? City Council of how big a town? Curious as to what you and your council members do to keep businesses in your town. Real solutions like partnerships, training programs to supply the workers they need? Things like that? Or do you throw tax breaks at 'em like most communities that try to bribe a company to stay. Would you go so far as Tennessee did to get a VW plant there? Tennessee provided the land, put in the utilities, put in the roads to service the plant, and offered millions in tax credits and abatements, ALL BEFORE VW EVEN HAD NARROWED DOWN THEIR CHOICES OF WHERE THEY MIGHT MOVE! Oh, by the way, Michigan put in a strong pitch but unfortunately there was a little bit of a wildcat strike going on in Flint, MI and VW took Michigan off the list because of union/management unrest in the auto industry. Oh yeah, Tennessee is a Right to Work state, isn't it? What would you and your council members do differently to get a company like that to locate in your town in Illinois?
Stop stalking me, Steven. Your little man-crush on me is getting a little embarrassing!
Just a little hint CRD what works in one instance, city, county, or state may or may not work somewhere else. Yes we have attracted huge corparations to our area using a multitude of different options. I have seen the way you twist things around in your posting with the Lane#1 boys and I for one will not get into a pissing match with you, you are more than welcome to run for office and gain the experience needed and take on all the different problems a city or county faces. What does your questioning me have to do with the damage caused by corparations moving out of the country? Please go do some research on what happens to a community, and please stick to the topic instead of changing it to try and start an argument.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/23/2009 12:27 PM
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 23, 2009, 03:21:12 PM
quote:
I don't disagree Zef, I just thought it was a good topic. Not just because of Brunswick moving to Mexico was bad for the US in a small way, but for the larger picture of companies moving out of country and the need for the stimulus package to try and save companies and jobs here in the US.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Absolutely.....great topic, but some of the stuff just keeps going round and round and round and round.......................
Keep goin'...........
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: 102101 on March 23, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
quote:
really? you seem to be the one wanting to pick a fight. Just asking for instances on what you would do? If you don't have any, say so. If you are on City Council of a small village or town that the biggest thing you have to worry about is leash laws for pets, just say so. If you are on the council of a large city, speak up! Don't hide behind the tired old cliche about what works in one place might not work in another. Really? Who knew? Thanks for your insight. The fact that you mentioned Lane #1 forum tells me all I need to know about you. All the pm's I got from various board members telling me "right on, make 'em answer your question with facts and logic" tells me that the majority don't think asking pointed questions is "twisting things around". You're not the first that hides behind rhetoric on this board and you won't be the last. Have a nice life in your protectionist cocoon.
Exactly as I predicted you sir are not worth the time, h3ll you can't even click on a link supplied on every post I make stating the lanes I bowl. That might give you a hint where I am from but as usual you chose the low road and try to ridicule, well anyone can plainly see you are nothing but an instigator. You seem to have so many of the right answer please run for office heaven knows Michigan can use your wisdom and help. Please back to the subject instead of trying to make someone look bad. Post all you want you I have better things to do with my time than deal with someone like you.
On edit please don't tell me you are that stupid to feel that a leash law is not important, the poor family down the street whose child that was mauled by a dog running lose might feel different. Even the little things are important but but obviously you can't, don't or won't see that.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/23/2009 4:23 PM
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 23, 2009, 04:19:26 PM
Why is it that people always get vulgar & confrontational in forums when they wouldn't do so if they were face to face with the same person? And to those of you "big men" that say you would do the same in person, I say you're full of it!
You're all hiding behind the internet and all the anonymity that it provides. Post your real names, addresses and home telephone numbers if you always feel the need to be confrontational.
That way, we can all be nasty to each other LIVE on the phone!
Soothers anyone?
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: 102101 on March 23, 2009, 04:43:29 PM
quote:
To no one in particular.......I have to say this!
Why is it that people always get vulgar & confrontational in forums when they wouldn't do so if they were face to face with the same person? And to those of you "big men" that say you would do the same in person, I say you're full of it!
You're all hiding behind the internet and all the anonymity that it provides. Post your real names, addresses and home telephone numbers if you always feel the need to be confrontational.
That way, we can all be nasty to each other LIVE on the phone!
Soothers anyone?
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
You're right Zef sorry I should have never let CRD get under my skin, heaven knows I deal with that all the time and I should have just shrugged it off to start with. There is no excuse for stooping to his level. If it was me then please accept my apologies for being a jerk.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: Nicanor on March 23, 2009, 04:45:09 PM
--------------------
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 23, 2009, 05:13:36 PM
Just agree to disagree with someone and keep your mouth shut instead of being vulgar. That's all I'm saying.
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: Steven on March 23, 2009, 07:32:15 PM
quote:
102101, son, do you really think I am going to click a link to a bowling center? Please.
CRD: LOL...The first thing I did when I saw the link to Blackhawk Lanes was click the link. Why? Because that's what naturally curious people do. 102101 felt it was important to include in his signature, so it was easy enough to tell he was from Sterling, Ill. Don't impose your 'click' limitations on anyone else.
quote:
C'mon man, say it loud and say it proud! Show some civic pride and tell us where you live. Then, after that, maybe answer some of the questions that were posed to you.
If you weren't "click" challenged, the link would be more than sufficient. I think 102101 has shown more than enough civic pride simply by being part of the process. You don't need any more excuses to stonewall answering any of his questions.
quote:
You duck and dodge almost as well as my buddy little Stevie.
You've got to be kidding. I've answered every question you've asked (up, down, and sideways). Then I get rewarded with being put on you ignore list for holding you accountable for answering questions in return. In fact, you never did answer how if cover is now 70% of reaction, where the other 30% comes from. Or even the question of the day of how many actual illegals are there that you insist work for 900Global. Inquiring minds do want to know.
Post by: 102101 on March 23, 2009, 08:59:05 PM
Old Posts cool rockin daddy
Group: Users
Show Profile Contact User Add to Address Book Ignore User Posted: 3/6/2009 10:14 PM Reply with quote Atta girl, stevie. When the going gets tough and more and more people call you out, you bail. You are a giant, stinking, steaming turd and I am glad that you have shown yourself for what you are. I knew sooner or later the gild would come off the rose and your true colors would be revealed. Guess your profile wasn't a lie when you said you are a THS hack. Get lost and don't come back. Post what you want in reply, I am just going to ignore you (by the way, oh weak one, that is different than actully being put on an ignore list) like all other insignificant motes of dust. You just ain't worth the time anymore. Thanks to all that helped expose this charlatan for the fake that he is. Rockbowler, JustRico, Jls, and the others over the years. It took a while but it was worth it. Have fun in loserville, stevie.
The link to the thread in case anyone wants to check it out.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?CategoryID=2&ForumID=7&TopicID=229896&PageNum=4
Sorry Zef I'm just sick of CRD and his constant ridiculing of anyone that does not have the same opinion or agrees with him.
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/23/2009 9:05 PM
Post by: BrunsNick on March 24, 2009, 01:47:11 AM
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 24, 2009, 10:27:37 AM
quote:
102101, zef whatever, and little stevie. The new Three Stooges. Three Lane #1 slappies with another anti-Brunswick diatribe disguised as discussion on world politics. Tsk, tsk.
Little Stevie (Moe)
You have been called out by many more than myself for being an arrogant, pompous azz. If the shoe fits.............but it is flattering to have my very own internet stalker.
Zef (Larry)
Just another turd who I am sure is on more than one person's ignore list.
102101 (Curly)
I had hopes for you. But, unfortunately, being on City Council of Dogpatch U.S.A. just doesn't give me much confidence in your knowledge of world politics and economics. Go back to worrying about what color the fire hydrants should be painted to celebrate Founders Day and leave the world issue discussions to the grownups. By the way, buying new or used balls from your list of traders benefits the country in what way? By avoiding the sales tax that goes to provide services and benefits to the community that you are trying to save? Just another hypocrite who wants everybody to do as he says and not as he does.
Edited on 3/23/2009 10:19 PM
You want to get into it with me when all I was doing was trying to create peace? Alrightee then...........
You're just a useless waste of skin, and the kind of retard that gives forums bad names. Why don't you check the wind direction, you cumwad! The roof of your trailer may be blowing off! I'm surprised you can respond to these threads, must be tough on dial-up!
Cool Rockin' Daddy, my ass! If you have kids, you're living proof why they should legalize abortion.
Back to the hole with you.....you MAGGOT!!!!!
--------------------
"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: 102101 on March 24, 2009, 12:06:30 PM
--------------------
102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: 102101 on March 24, 2009, 12:27:00 PM
quote:
102101, zef whatever, and little stevie. The new Three Stooges. Three Lane #1 slappies with another anti-Brunswick diatribe disguised as discussion on world politics. Tsk, tsk.
Little Stevie (Moe)
You have been called out by many more than myself for being an arrogant, pompous azz. If the shoe fits.............but it is flattering to have my very own internet stalker.
Zef (Larry)
Just another turd who I am sure is on more than one person's ignore list.
102101 (Curly)
I had hopes for you. But, unfortunately, being on City Council of Dogpatch U.S.A. just doesn't give me much confidence in your knowledge of world politics and economics. Go back to worrying about what color the fire hydrants should be painted to celebrate Founders Day and leave the world issue discussions to the grownups. By the way, buying new or used balls from your list of traders benefits the country in what way? By avoiding the sales tax that goes to provide services and benefits to the community that you are trying to save? Just another hypocrite who wants everybody to do as he says and not as he does.
Edited on 3/23/2009 10:19 PM
LOL CRD let me explain it to you the balls I PURCHASED from tekneek were ones with long pins that my proshop didn't carry. They were delivered to me in turn I had my proshop drill them, therefore tekneeks proshop made money and my driller made money which in turn supports the economy base in both communities. Oh not to worry you just need to check my profile to see I do purchase plenty of equipment from my local proshop. Not sure why you couldn't figure that one out, maybe the lack of brain power or you just had to grasp at straws again to try ridicule me. Waiting for some more of your intelligent comments that are surely coming.
PS Have you started doing research on the proper paperwork you will need to fill out so you are able to get on the next election ballot, since you have all the answers to all the problems in the world?
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102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
Edited on 3/24/2009 2:10 PM
Post by: Steven on March 24, 2009, 02:22:40 PM
quote:
Steven just drop it man I appreciate the support but CRD has proven time and time again what kind of "MAN" he is when he continues to make posts like this one he made in the Lane#1 Forum. Sorry for having to use this example but it really shows what kind of human he is. He is just not worth the time and effort.
102101: Sorry if my post dragged you into the muck. When CRD melts into elementary school rants, I take them for what they're worth -- not a lot.
CRD: You're too ignorant to get that Nick is using you to promote his own agenda. He's proven time and again he'll hook his Red Rider Wagon to any poster who fits his needs, so congratulations. And way to go on adding 3 or 4 additional posters to your 'fan' club.
As far as any real discussion about the effects of moving manufacturing out of the country, you said it all with your 'Have a nice life in your protectionist cocoon' statement. I guess any big words used to discuss the merits/issues fall into that internal waste basket you label 'rhetoric'. You find it too easy to dismiss things when you don't understand what's being said. Get out a dictionary and ask some questions. You might find it enlightening.
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 24, 2009, 02:30:02 PM
quote:
Sorry to drag you into this Zef I should have kept my mouth shut. Sorry
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102101? Hmmmm
www.blackhawklanes.com
It's all good, man! No biggie......I just hate dealing with people who's I.Q. is lower than their age. I didn't say anything derogatory to CRD, and he decides to include me in his tirade! Why? I have no idea......proof that some just spend too much time in forums and need to get a life!
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"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: BrunsNick on March 24, 2009, 04:48:23 PM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: Zef Olantar on March 24, 2009, 04:53:13 PM
quote:
Moe! Larry! The cheese!
Wow....CRD Speaks!
Surprised you were able to put those words together!
Go back into hibernation.....and if you wake up, go find another forum
to frequent!
You really should hurry home and stop wasting your time posting your nonsense
in here......your Mommy is waiting for you in bed!
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"You may not like it now........but you'll LEARN to like it!"
Canadian SAWhead
Post by: completebowler on March 24, 2009, 06:04:37 PM
I did it for years and still do now. I now pay the higher costs by purchasing older Lane 1's if I want somethng with PowerKoil 18.
I did it for years buying Quantums.
Verbs you can say it was all about making a profit if you want but Brunswick turned a fine profit for years building balls in Mi. and the other companies do still in other American cities.
They sold out the workers for profits at the corporate level...plain and simple...you will never convince me otherwise.
Post by: Nicanor on March 24, 2009, 07:04:11 PM
I thiink you stated your point too simply. CRD and some others want to make it too complex. Brunswick closed their bowling ball manufacturing plants and moved them to Mexico. simple. Now they had to lay off a certain amout of emplyess. simple. Brunswick took their bowling ball manufacturing plant to Mexico to increase their profit margin. simple. They must have had poor mangement. simple. Because if they had good management, they would have been able to suceed in the US. Brunswick is a corporation. simple. Their goal is to make money. simple. They are a corporation in the business to make money regardless of how it effects us here in the US. simple.
If Brunswick does not care about the US citizen, why should we buy Brunswick. simple.
Not so simple and no one will respond to it.
If the big three decided to take the stimulus money and move their plants to Mexico, how would we feel? Yes most will still buy their products, but do they survive? What if company after company follows them to Mexico, china or another country where wages are lower and they don't care about the enviornment. How many jobs can we lose to other countries and still recover and have a strong economy?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: JustRico on March 24, 2009, 07:50:25 PM
quote:
Bottom line...I would have paid 10% more and still thrown Brunswick forever if they would have stayed in Mi.
I did it for years and still do now. I now pay the higher costs by purchasing older Lane 1's if I want somethng with PowerKoil 18.
I did it for years buying Quantums.
Verbs you can say it was all about making a profit if you want but Brunswick turned a fine profit for years building balls in Mi. and the other companies do still in other American cities.
They sold out the workers for profits at the corporate level...plain and simple...you will never convince me otherwise.
Trust me, Brunswick's Bowling Consumer Division DID NOT TURN a profit operating out of Muskegin Michigan's manufacturing plant. Plain and simple.
Now I am not defending Brunswick, just clarifying your post. And unless you were there, you would not know what Brunswick did, as far as sales or profits. It had to do with the unions not wanting to negotiate with Brunswick. Plain and simple. You can believe what you want. Brunswick did not sale anyone out.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: Nicanor on March 24, 2009, 07:58:56 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Verbs on March 24, 2009, 09:19:14 PM
quote:
To comment on the last 2 posts...
The reason for Mexico, the boat division (BayLiner) had already in place a manufacturing plant in the area that the ball manufacturing plant is and was doing well. Granted this was 2-3 years ago, when the boat division was prospering and before Katrina & the current down turn in the economy.
Steven, you are correct in much of what you posted. Time will tell if it is merely slowing the bleeding.
Nicanor,
See above. That question was answered 2 pages ago.
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Formerly BrunsRico
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Larry Verble
Post by: JustRico on March 24, 2009, 09:32:39 PM
"What is behind me does not matter!"
But then again we get home made cheese cake!
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: Verbs on March 24, 2009, 09:41:17 PM
And they are AWESOME!!!!!
quote:
To quote a great movie line....
"What is behind me does not matter!"
But then again we get home made cheese cake!
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Formerly BrunsRico
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Larry Verble
Post by: JustRico on March 24, 2009, 09:47:22 PM
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: tburky on March 24, 2009, 09:54:08 PM
Post by: Verbs on March 24, 2009, 10:16:55 PM
quote:
Just out of curiosity how much of a pay cut did all management,other salary staff and sales take to help the company seeing how the unionized work force did not want to negotiate a pay cut. How much tax incentives did the federal government provide brunswick to move their facility to mexico? What did the state of Michigan do to help keep brunswick in the U.S. Did they offer tax incentives to build a new manufacturing facility or money to purchase machinery? I am not ragging on brunswick but I am just curious.
I can only say that the State of Michigan offered very little, if any, incentives to get Brunswick to stay in Michigan. The government offered very little, if any, incentives to get Brunswick to stay.
As far as salaried employee's taking a pay cut, Brunswick corporate in its infinite wisdom chose another route AFTER the Mexico plant didn't open as seamlessly as it was anticipated..........corporate downsizing. Which Rico & I were apart of, along with a few others from other divisions, at separate times.
I will say it again, AT THAT TIME, moving the manufacturing to Mexico was the best option for Brunswick to stay in the bowling ball business.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Post by: tburky on March 24, 2009, 10:19:37 PM
quote:quote:
Just out of curiosity how much of a pay cut did all management,other salary staff and sales take to help the company seeing how the unionized work force did not want to negotiate a pay cut. How much tax incentives did the federal government provide brunswick to move their facility to mexico? What did the state of Michigan do to help keep brunswick in the U.S. Did they offer tax incentives to build a new manufacturing facility or money to purchase machinery? I am not ragging on brunswick but I am just curious.
I can only say that the State of Michigan offered very little, if any, incentives to get Brunswick to stay in Michigan. The government offered very little, if any, incentives to get Brunswick to stay.
As far as salaried employee's taking a pay cut, Brunswick corporate in its infinite wisdom chose another route AFTER the Mexico plant didn't open as seamlessly as it was anticipated..........corporate downsizing. Which Rico & I were apart of, along with a few others from other divisions, at separate times.
I will say it again, AT THAT TIME, moving the manufacturing to Mexico was the best option for Brunswick to stay in the bowling ball business.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
I understand why brunswick moved to mexico. I am not knocking what they did.
Post by: Verbs on March 24, 2009, 10:25:59 PM
I have stated it before on this forum. And I think I speak for JustRico on this. Yes, we were screwed over by Brunswick Corporate. But we choose to take the high road and try and support the friends we have left at Brunswick.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
Post by: tburky on March 24, 2009, 10:43:05 PM
quote:
Fair enough tburky.
I have stated it before on this forum. And I think I speak for JustRico on this. Yes, we were screwed over by Brunswick Corporate. But we choose to take the high road and try and support the friends we have left at Brunswick.
Verbs
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Larry Verble
I have purchased 2 brunswick balls this year and I do understand your support to the friends you left behind.
Post by: Nicanor on March 25, 2009, 05:44:36 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Powermachine- on March 25, 2009, 07:25:01 PM
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yes i sandbag im left handed.
Typical house bowler
Avg-210
lineup:
need some balls p
Quantum Le
Post by: Nicanor on March 25, 2009, 07:33:39 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Nicanor on March 25, 2009, 09:16:01 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/25/2009 11:00 PM
Post by: Powermachine- on March 25, 2009, 10:04:23 PM
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yes i sandbag im left handed.
Typical house bowler
Avg-210
lineup:
need some balls p
Quantum Le
Post by: Nicanor on March 26, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited on 3/26/2009 2:30 PM
Post by: Buddy Christ on March 26, 2009, 02:26:51 PM
quote:
So did you read in this morning's paper that the US government is going to start buying their condoms from Asia? The company that was making the condoms for USAID said that they were told that an Asia company can make the condoms fater and cheaper then the company in Alabama. So I don't know how many of the 300 employees will losse their jobs. I realize its just a little operation, but even now the government is outsourcing jobs to foriegn companies.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Yeah, just look how good China's population is. No they're going to be making our condoms?
Fan-freaking-tastic.
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=Sean=
MÃliste!
Post by: DON DRAPER on March 26, 2009, 04:26:51 PM