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Author Topic: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League  (Read 12269 times)

Mikemack42

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Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« on: July 10, 2013, 07:42:39 PM »
Hey everyone.

So this summer I signed up for a sport shot league for the first time in my life. Needless to say, Ive been getting my @$$ whooped, thus why i have turned to BR.com for help. We are bowling all 6 of the Kegel shots, Autobahn, Boardwalk, Dead Mans Curve, Highway to Hell, Turnpike, Winding Road. we bowl them in alphabetical order, and we start back over next week for the second time.

I honestly struggled on all the shots except Autobahn (I shot 862 for 4 games) and i figured out Winding Road late in the second game to salvage 740.

I guess my question is what are the basics i need to know about adjusting and how the flatter patterns breakdown. Also if anyone has equipment advise that would be great to

I throw the ball around 16 mph with medium to high revs and i track high. I am a 210+ average bowler in my winter league, but want to get better and i feel bowling well on sport patterns is the next step for me.

Mike

 

dmonroe814

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 07:42:33 AM »
All the great formulas and magic lines all go away after you throw your first ball.  Don't be so concerned about where to play the lanes because every house, lane machine and bowler is different.  Accuracy, consistency, and spare making are the most important requirements for bowling well on any sport shot.  If you average 210 on a house shot, consider yourself successful if you average 190 on a sport shot.  Relax and have fun.
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Gizmo823

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:14 AM »
First of all, you need to pay a lot of attention.  The first time you bowl on something, you're not going to do very well, because how it plays to begin with and how it breaks down is going to keep you constantly behind, so don't worry about how it goes the first time through.  Just need to try a bunch of things and watch what happens. 

Number 2 is to find where you want to play, and go a couple boards right of that and "burn" a bumper in, meaning take something aggressive and just basically remove all the oil you can in practice so you will have some miss room to the right.  The pros are good, but if they had to start scoring on fresh conditions right away, they wouldn't average what they do.  They have a half hour of practice before they start scoring to break the shot down they way they like it. 

Number 3 is that no matter what the numbers on the sheet say, it will play differently everywhere.  Even the pros say that the house characteristics shine through, so they keep notes about how each individual lane predominantly acts.  So if I would tell you that this pattern plays here or that pattern plays here, you may find something completely different at your house. 

However MOST tougher shots play inside, and if you're only bowling 4 games, I wouldn't worry too much about playing for transition, you shouldn't have to move too much to find enough head oil to get you through the set.  But you don't always want to go as aggressive as you can with equipment, you want to burn in a shot, but once it's there, you want it to stay there.  If you've seen any of the summer PBA shows, these guys are using shiny or pearl stuff on the Badger, which is the longest pattern they have out there.  Most guys would think with oil that they need a hook monster, and yeah you might score for a few games, but when you destroy your shot, or more accurately when your head oil disappears, that's a bad place to be. 

They have several assorted videos on youtube about sport bowling in general, but it's hard to describe it with words.  It's just getting experience and getting used to the type of shot you need to throw to be consistent, which is hard because it's completely opposite of a house shot.  And it's kind of funny, once you get used to a sport shot, you might go back to a house shot and feel completely embarassed, because you might not be able to hit it. 

Rhino Page lived here for a couple years while he was going to KU.  Well he lived with this family for a while and made several friends here, so he comes back to visit every once and a while.  A couple years ago after the world series of bowling wrapped up, he came to visit, and subbed in one of our leagues.  Well after a month of intensive bowling on PBA patterns, he shot like 540 for 3 games on our house shot, just couldn't get it going.  Well, he stayed for a week, so he practiced some, and the next week when he subbed he shot 830-something. 

So it's normal to be lost, and it's just going to take a lot of practice, and especially paying attention, that may be the biggest adjustment.  I don't mean just paying attention to what your ball is doing.  If you want to be successful on a sport pattern, you need to pay attention to every shot that every other bowler is throwing, because you may see a move you need to make before you get up and find out the hard way.  You'll also learn things from them if they know what they're doing, or see how it's breaking down for people who may play straighter, or play deeper, and you can use that next time you bowl on it. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

blesseddad

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 12:31:11 PM »
There is an instinctual aspect that some tend to forget. We get tied up in length of patterns, the pattern name, the volume, the ratio and on and on....

What will help you as well as the great information above you is this simple list of goals:

1. Keep stuff in front of you, trying to use what is there and not force your will on the pattern. Straighter tends to be better. Never give the pocket away. You MUST be a great spare shooter.

2. Forget all the "junk" that might cloud your mind. Know your game and throw the ball. Know how to read what the ball is doing. Your instincts should tell you the where, what, how, when, etc...

Above all, give yourself some time to figure it out.
Be patient, be positive and keep asking for help. You will get there!

Gizmo823

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 12:40:34 PM »
There is an instinctual aspect that some tend to forget. We get tied up in length of patterns, the pattern name, the volume, the ratio and on and on....

What will help you as well as the great information above you is this simple list of goals:

1. Keep stuff in front of you, trying to use what is there and not force your will on the pattern. Straighter tends to be better. Never give the pocket away. You MUST be a great spare shooter.

2. Forget all the "junk" that might cloud your mind. Know your game and throw the ball. Know how to read what the ball is doing. Your instincts should tell you the where, what, how, when, etc...

Above all, give yourself some time to figure it out.
Be patient, be positive and keep asking for help. You will get there!

Big +1
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 03:00:28 PM »
If you are going to bowl in leagues and tournaments that are going to tell you what the condition is that you are going to bowl on why would you not educate yourself and learn how to read a graph and a load chart and understand why your ball reacts the way it does? 

If you find that stuff is "junk" you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.  The best bowlers are also tacticians and have a game plan and don't rely totally on instinct.  Yes, feel and instinct are a huge part, but so is knowledge.

It's no different than learning about core dynamics and how that effects your ball reaction.

Armourboy

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 03:23:59 PM »
If you are going to bowl in leagues and tournaments that are going to tell you what the condition is that you are going to bowl on why would you not educate yourself and learn how to read a graph and a load chart and understand why your ball reacts the way it does? 

If you find that stuff is "junk" you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.  The best bowlers are also tacticians and have a game plan and don't rely totally on instinct.  Yes, feel and instinct are a huge part, but so is knowledge.

It's no different than learning about core dynamics and how that effects your ball reaction.

I had this same discussion once, and basically what it boiled down to  in the end was that just because they tell you that's what is being put down, doesn't mean that's actually what is on the lane. Whether its user error, something with the machine, or just something with that individual lane, according to some of the guys around here that do work in centers, you would be surprised just how often what they say is going down isn't what is really going down.

The advise given to me was not to worry so much about what it was supposed to be, and worry more about what it actually is by being able to read the lane and make adjustments to it.


With that said though, if you do know what its supposed to be it does give you a place to start with as opposed to just going in completely blind.

Gizmo823

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 03:46:49 PM »
If you are going to bowl in leagues and tournaments that are going to tell you what the condition is that you are going to bowl on why would you not educate yourself and learn how to read a graph and a load chart and understand why your ball reacts the way it does? 

If you find that stuff is "junk" you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.  The best bowlers are also tacticians and have a game plan and don't rely totally on instinct.  Yes, feel and instinct are a huge part, but so is knowledge.

It's no different than learning about core dynamics and how that effects your ball reaction.

I had this same discussion once, and basically what it boiled down to  in the end was that just because they tell you that's what is being put down, doesn't mean that's actually what is on the lane. Whether its user error, something with the machine, or just something with that individual lane, according to some of the guys around here that do work in centers, you would be surprised just how often what they say is going down isn't what is really going down.

The advise given to me was not to worry so much about what it was supposed to be, and worry more about what it actually is by being able to read the lane and make adjustments to it.


With that said though, if you do know what its supposed to be it does give you a place to start with as opposed to just going in completely blind.

I'd give that a +1 too.  I've got a buddy in the Coast Guard and he was going to Texas for All-Navy tryouts, and he had the pattern list so they entered Sydney and Paris into the machine and put them down a couple times for him to practice on here before he left.  Well, he read the graphs, broke them down, figured out the transition, and developed a game plan.  Got down to Texas, and he said the patterns were barely recognizable, and not close at all to what he practiced on.  Now, having the lane graph was still helpful, but his whole gameplan got shot out the window because they transitioned different at a different rate.  I would say to learn how to read them to gain experience with what it generally means as far as where to play, where to move to, the effect of forward and reverse oiling, oil volumes, etc, but once you know how all that "feels" then you should be able to figure it out.  I highly doubt the pros look at lane graphs for new patterns, I bet they just get on the lanes and figure it out themselves.  Now obviously they've developed the experience, but I find I get a lot more out of throwing shots than looking at a graph, as I can look at a graph and decide where it tells me I should be playing, and I might end up in a completely different spot because of what I actually have to work with.  But in the end, don't take what the graph says to the bank, and just because you've found a shot that works doesn't mean it will be there for long or that it will transition well for you.  Basically the graph can tell you a ton and nothing at all at the same time.  But it's important to know how to read them to know how to apply the information to your game, I think they're still important, but if somebody told me I could read a graph and start bowling, or throw 4 shots and start bowling, I'd throw the 4 shots without hesitation. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 04:14:43 PM »
Yes, but the difference is if you know how to read the graph and load chart, you can read the graph AND throw 4 shots.

Telling me all the other things you are wasting your time.  I've bowled plenty in my time.  I know how it works.  What I'm telling you is learning about lanes, oil and how it is applied is another tool.

Just like watching your ball go down the lane and your reaction being less than desirable.  Who has the advantage, the person who knows why the ball reacted the way it did and knows what to switch to, or the guy that doesn't know anything and just goes back to his bag and grabs another ball?

blesseddad

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 05:29:13 PM »
Yes, but the difference is if you know how to read the graph and load chart, you can read the graph AND throw 4 shots.

Telling me all the other things you are wasting your time.  I've bowled plenty in my time.  I know how it works.  What I'm telling you is learning about lanes, oil and how it is applied is another tool.

Just like watching your ball go down the lane and your reaction being less than desirable.  Who has the advantage, the person who knows why the ball reacted the way it did and knows what to switch to, or the guy that doesn't know anything and just goes back to his bag and grabs another ball?

By "junk" I meant a type of information overload that will limit your ability to be flexible enough to perform. The data and the numbers, etc., are just a tool and probably best used as a starting point to strategize what you will do. And I agree that it can be a very valuable tool. We want it to be usable, not "junk" that clouds our judgement and keeps us from bowling as well as we can.  I know for a fact that just because you ask a lane tech/mechanic to put down a certain pattern, does not make it so.  After averaging 225 for 2 weeks and not throwing it very well, on what was supposed to be the 2013 Team pattern from Nationals, and having 3 spray boards to the right, I told the director of the league that he might want to verify what is being put down. Wish I could go to Reno and see that much free friction to the miss...

itsallaboutme

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 06:16:43 PM »
Y'all reply like I don't understand that the lane, oil, weather, lane machine, and if the mechanic took a dump before or after he did the lanes can make a difference in how the lanes play.

What I'm saying and all I'm saying is if you are given some information and choose not to use that information you are not helping yourself. 

The OP asked about lane conditions he's never bowled on.  If you look at the PDFs of the patterns you can get an understanding of how the conditioner is supposed to be applied and get an idea of why your ball is reacting the way it is. 

If your a person that gets paralysis by analysis, graphs and load charts aren't for you.  If you want to learn as much about the game as you can you will educate yourself on how the lane machine works and how to analyze the data and use it to your advantage.

Strider

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:00 PM »
Number 2 is to find where you want to play, and go a couple boards right of that and "burn" a bumper in, meaning take something aggressive and just basically remove all the oil you can in practice so you will have some miss room to the right.  The pros are good, but if they had to start scoring on fresh conditions right away, they wouldn't average what they do.  They have a half hour of practice before they start scoring to break the shot down they way they like it. 

I don't know where you bowl, but we get 10 minutes of practice for 8 people on a pair.  That's 5, maybe 6 shots total.  The first two are purely to get loose.  The next few are to see how the pattern is playing.  Even if you thought it was an advantage, I don't see how there's time to "break down a shot" in practice, unless you're trying to emulate Nationals and break them down as a team (if it a team league).  We do team for the winter and singles for the summer.  Nationals might be one thing, but I don't see a group of people working together to break down an oil pattern week after week on a set of rotating patterns.

Gizmo823

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 08:10:33 AM »
Number 2 is to find where you want to play, and go a couple boards right of that and "burn" a bumper in, meaning take something aggressive and just basically remove all the oil you can in practice so you will have some miss room to the right.  The pros are good, but if they had to start scoring on fresh conditions right away, they wouldn't average what they do.  They have a half hour of practice before they start scoring to break the shot down they way they like it. 

I don't know where you bowl, but we get 10 minutes of practice for 8 people on a pair.  That's 5, maybe 6 shots total.  The first two are purely to get loose.  The next few are to see how the pattern is playing.  Even if you thought it was an advantage, I don't see how there's time to "break down a shot" in practice, unless you're trying to emulate Nationals and break them down as a team (if it a team league).  We do team for the winter and singles for the summer.  Nationals might be one thing, but I don't see a group of people working together to break down an oil pattern week after week on a set of rotating patterns.

We get 10 minutes of practice too, but I generally don't start out playing where I want to end up playing.  Because of the lack of time, I just keep working on the lanes throughout the first game.  With it being a fresh shot, I can generally have a decent score and still set myself up for the next couple games. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Gizmo823

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 08:12:07 AM »
Number 2 is to find where you want to play, and go a couple boards right of that and "burn" a bumper in, meaning take something aggressive and just basically remove all the oil you can in practice so you will have some miss room to the right.  The pros are good, but if they had to start scoring on fresh conditions right away, they wouldn't average what they do.  They have a half hour of practice before they start scoring to break the shot down they way they like it. 

I don't know where you bowl, but we get 10 minutes of practice for 8 people on a pair.  That's 5, maybe 6 shots total.  The first two are purely to get loose.  The next few are to see how the pattern is playing.  Even if you thought it was an advantage, I don't see how there's time to "break down a shot" in practice, unless you're trying to emulate Nationals and break them down as a team (if it a team league).  We do team for the winter and singles for the summer.  Nationals might be one thing, but I don't see a group of people working together to break down an oil pattern week after week on a set of rotating patterns.

And this also brings in to play what itsallaboutme is saying about lane graphs.  If you can get work done and have a general idea what your gameplan needs to be, you can maximize the efficiency of your shots. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Zanatos1914

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Re: Help!! Kegel Sport Shot League
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 09:05:27 AM »
Maybe I am not that good - WHICH IS TRUE..

But when I bowled the sport shot team during the summer - Every shot was a guessing game because it changed every shot during the team event..  Has anybody else experienced this and how to you adopt to something like that... Are the pba's dealing with this also or could be the number of bowlers on the lane affecting the pattern....