Post by: janderson on October 09, 2004, 03:23:01 AM
Help!
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: janderson on October 10, 2004, 11:15:05 AM
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 10, 2004, 11:16:32 AM
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The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: janderson on October 11, 2004, 04:48:25 PM
You're right - layout definitely has an effect on over/under, but it also seems
like certain cover-core combinations are more likely to be over/under than others.
I'm looking for a cover-core starting point that other people have found
over/under on "typical" conditions, say, a typical house shot, an x-mas
tree pattern, or a crown.
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: smitty8288 on October 11, 2004, 09:40:13 PM
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 11, 2004, 10:03:57 PM
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BALLREVIEWS.COM MOD SQUAD! <---member
16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: thfonz98 on October 11, 2004, 10:38:17 PM
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Officially not a moderator
Post by: janderson on October 12, 2004, 02:41:05 PM
thfonz - same here, which is why I've avoided label laverage (until now?)
quote:
Can I ask WHY you need an over/under ball, anyways?
Sure - good question. Very good question actually since you mostly see people trying to avoid it.
The quick and simple answer: lane conditions.
In two of my league houses this season we've faced some pretty challenging conditions - conditions where a 1-board miss left or right at the arrows (assuming an otherwise good shot) has translated to a 3- or 4-board miss left or right (accordingly) at the pins.
For any newer bowlers that may read this and if I'm not explaining things too well, it basically works out this way. I'm right-handed. On these "troublesome" conditions if I miss my mark to the right by 1 board but otherwise throw a good shot (consistent speed, revolutions, delivery, etc) instead of the ball being a little (1-board) right in the pocket, it is very light in the pocket, barely making contact with the head-pin. If I miss my mark to the left by 1 board, but otherwise throw a good shot, instead of the ball being a little (1-board) left/high in the pocket, it is through the nose.
Ok, now you experienced bowlers out there might be saying: sounds like a very good, tough flat shot or sport pattern. That was my first reaction as well. However, watching some other bowlers, I saw some "spray and pray" bowlers that had area and a more consistent reaction - not the type of bowler that would typically score well on a sport pattern or flat shot.
I tried different combinations of lines (3 board all the way to 30 board), speeds, revs, and release changes to find a better reaction. Only a release change - increasing axis rotation closer to 90 degrees - seemed to help, and only a little. However, one thing all my experiments had in common: my equipment. Almost all of my equipment is either "control" equipment or has a control layout.
So I started thinking, on a "typical" condition, an over/under ball holds (skids) too much when you miss a board left and ends up more than one board right at the pins and hooks too much when you miss a board right and ends up more through the nose. What would happen if we took one of those balls and applied it to the above troublesome conditions?
Well, I dusted off the one over/under ball in my arsenal that I had not given or traded away and took it with me. For the first game, I threw a control piece of equipment to get a feel for the conditions and make sure they were basically the same as they had been. For the 2nd game, I broke out the over/under ball. Bam! Area - 3 boards.
So to complete my experiment and truly learn from the experience, I'd like to try a ball that is even more over/under than the one I have and see what happens with it.
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: Leftyhi-trak on October 12, 2004, 03:52:27 PM
P.S. - A profile is nice to get backround information about someone. Hint, Hint.
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 12, 2004, 03:57:16 PM
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BALLREVIEWS.COM MOD SQUAD! <---member
16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: janderson on October 12, 2004, 04:59:54 PM
quote:
P.S. - A profile is nice to get backround information about someone. Hint, Hint.
Except for the grit info, all that is already in my profile. As far as grit goes, my stuff runs the gamut. What I have tried on these particular conditions ranges from 600 to 2000.
BK25 - Skid/Flip stuff does seem to generally be more prone to over-under, but isn't automatically. So I'm around to my question again, what equipment has been over/under for you?
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 05:45:15 PM
I finally feel it is solved with a Vortex II pearl. The low rg seems to have a lot to do with the solution.
When playing the oil line with higher rg struff(hot rod, Hot wire) and anything with more normal rgs I was always over under.
Recently have seen nice results on this 40 foot shot regardless of oil volume with all very ow rg stuff. REaction Roll, Vortex 2 pearl if playing in the oil or along the oil line, even a Core Power LRG and an old tour boss pearl have been great!
Also back a little bit I could tear it up with a Sonic boom put down outside in the dirt.
In general the high rg stuff is not effective anywhere near the oil line giving lots of over under!
REgards,
Luckylefty
COuld rg be the key to curing over under?
Post by: janderson on October 12, 2004, 06:08:32 PM
So maybe it is time to take a medium Rg high diff reactive pearl and drill it to flip?
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 06:17:05 PM
I said I believed I had solved my problem by switching from many balls in the 2.52 to 2.58 rg range into balls in the 2.46 to 2.50 rg range.
Striking up a patch!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: janderson on October 12, 2004, 06:21:18 PM
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 12, 2004, 06:30:48 PM
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BALLREVIEWS.COM MOD SQUAD! <---member
16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 06:31:23 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS all balls above are high rg and big diff! Idea is they work on shorter patterns or a lot of swing is the line!
Post by: janderson on October 12, 2004, 07:27:54 PM
quote:
Im still lost on how a control ball wouldnt be better for this? What is the oil pattern anyways? I mean, if its such a hard shot, why not just take a really arcing ball and play up 5?
It is a hard shot partly because I don't have the correct equipment to deal with it. The other half, I will admit, is my inability to deliver a ball that (by the way I throw it) creates over/under. My days of hitting-up on the ball like I was starting a lawnmower are behind me.
Here's why I believe the control equipment is not working and how I understand/picture when to use over/under versus control equipment. Bear with me, I think this is good information for everyone.
Forget lane conditions and how we throw the ball for a minute and just consider the equipment itself. Control equipment does not jump/hook (over-react) when it finds the dry boards. It will typically arc and make a gradual but firm move. Control equipment (because of layout, cover, low rg, etc) will generally start to roll sooner. Thus, even in oil, control equipment is going to have some (at least a little) reaction instead of push. So in a nutshell, control equipment reacts/hooks (even if slightly) less off the dry and more in the oil.
Again, forget lane conditions and delivery for a minute. The opposite of control equipment is what we typically call "over/under" or equipment that "over-reacts". This type of equipment does jump/hook hard when it finds the dry boards. Sometimes, it jumps too hard, thus "over-react". It also goes long (because of layout, cover, high rg, etc) and hooks very little (skids) while in the oil. So while in the oil, it is "under". Again in a nutshell, "over/under" equipment can be said to hook harder off the dry and weaker in the oil.
Ok, now let's introduce lane conditions. I'm going to over simplify to illustrate the point - I'm not trying to offend anyone. For the rest of this discussion, assume that every shot we make is perfect EXCEPT for missing our target.
Imagine the following lane condition: There is a heavy block of oil (conditioner) between the second arrows (10th board from the right all the way to 10th board from the left) extending 50 feet down the lane. By "heavy" let's say 60 units. If you don't know, don't worry about what a unit is. Just take it as a generic amount. Outside of both second arrows, between the right gutter and the 10th board from the right gutter and between the left gutter and the 10th board from the left gutter all the way down the lane is a "light" area of oil - the "dry" part of the lane. By "light" let's say 6 units. The backends are "clean" of oil.
This is a 10-to-1 ratio and actually provides a very easy condition to score on. UNLESS we have a ball that is over/under.
Here's when a over/under piece of equipment can be very over/under. If, when throwing the over/under equipment, we miss our mark a little to the outside (miss to the right for right-handers, left for left-handers) the ball gets to the dry area sooner and reacts/hooks strongly on the dry boards. The end result is that the ball hooks more and actually goes through the nose of the pins with a good chance for a split. That's the "over". The lane condition provides enough dry for hook when we miss to the right and the over/under ball hooks even more off the dry. Over hook overkill. If we miss our mark a little inside (miss left for right-handers, miss right for left-handers) the ball stays in the heavy oil longer and hardly reacts at all. The end result is that we miss the head pin completely (to the right for righties, to the left for lefties)! Thus the "under". The lanes already have built in "hold" (oil) for when we miss inside and the over/under ball is one that doesn't hook in oil. Under-hook overkill. I would call this a "counter-intuitive" reaction. When we miss outside at the arrows the ball ends up "inside" (through the nose) at the pins and when we miss inside at the arrows the ball ends up "outside" (slide by the head pin) at the pins.
On the same condition, the control piece of equipment works wonders for the exact opposite reasons. When we miss outside, the ball gets to the dry and the lanes would have our ball hooking hard. However, control equipment doesn't hook as hard off dry, so the ball lays off and arcs its way to the pocket. When we miss inside, the oil there would have your ball continue to slide outside. However, control equipment does generate some hook even in the oil, so our ball has enough hook (combined with the reduced angle) to get to the pocket. Big scores ensue.
Now imagine the same lane condition pattern but with different amounts of oil. In the center you have 60 units of oil but on the outside you now have 20 units of oil. This would be a 3-to-1 ratio.
Role reversal! Important: Remember now that there is more oil on the lane overall. You would have to play a more direct line to the pocket.
Now the equipment that was over/under on the first lane condition is perfect. When we miss outside, the lane oil is such that the ball would typically not make it back, but the ball is actually going to turn a bit harder when it gets to the lighter oil (the "dry" - 20 units is still dryer than 60 units), but not too much because there is still enough oil out there to keep it from over reacting. When we miss a little inside, the ball still does the same thing through the 60 units of oil as it did on the first condition, but because we're playing a more direct line to the pocket (due to more oil overall on the lane) the ball holds online right into the pocket. Big scores ensue.
What happens to the "control" equipment? Well, when we miss outside, there isn't the extra "dry" (20 units is more than three times slicker than 6 units) to steer the ball back and even when it hits the dry, it doesn't hook as hard so you end up missing the head pin. When we miss inside, the ball still wants to hook some, but now because we're playing a more direct line to the pocket, the hook is too much and the ball goes through the nose for a split. I would call this a somewhat "fair" reaction because when we miss outside at the arrows, the ball is outside (slide by the headpin) at the pins and when we miss inside at the arrows the ball is inside (through the nost) at the pins. I say "somewhat" fair because a 1-board miss at the arrows rarely translates to a 1-board miss at the pins, resulting in what could be called an "over/over" situation.
BK25 - I hope that explains it pretty well. It is this last paragraph that pretty much sums up my situation and why I'm looking for a ball that is "over/under" on a "typical" lane condition.
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Edited on 10/12/2004 7:26 PM
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 12, 2004, 07:57:29 PM
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BALLREVIEWS.COM MOD SQUAD! <---member
16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: janderson on October 13, 2004, 09:36:30 PM
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on October 13, 2004, 10:05:38 PM
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BALLREVIEWS.COM MOD SQUAD! <---member
16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!