Author Topic: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores? (Read 1518 times)

Steven · « **on:** November 23, 2004, 04:05:49 AM »

I'm noticing a trend by many major companies towards asymmetric cores in their higher end equipment. Ebonite made the splash with the Apex line, and now Track seems to have jumped on the asymmetric bandwagon.

I just don't get it. In general, asymmetric cores are more unstable in reaction than their symmetric counterparts, and really aren't the ideal match for extreme wet/dry league conditions.

Don't get me wrong -- I own and throw my share of asymmetric pieces, but they get much less use than my more versatile symmetric balls. Is it just marketing for "ball of the month" sales, or is it because the companies actually believe asymmetric cores actually makes for a better ball?
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "

Ragnar · « **Reply #1 on:** November 23, 2004, 12:10:35 PM »

Steven, don't discount the "gee whiz" factor - as in, "gee whiz, it's an assymetric core - must be a real whiz bang of a ball and I gotta have one."
I'm with you; tried the original Apex and a couple of other assymetrics and despised them. I don't see enough variance in conditions to need one. What seems to work best for me are longer or center heavy symmetric cores.
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"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." Oscar Wilde
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #2 on:** November 23, 2004, 12:15:31 PM »

Steven,
Good post.......however....after having a few asym pieces drilled by "king of the mill" ...and learning more about them....I'm not so sure that asyms are that easy to "categorize" ....don't get me wrong...I understand your comment, but I'm just not convinced that's necessarily true.

I have a MoRich Hercules drilled in a 'hook-set' type fashion that I can play with just about ANYWHERE I go.....sport, wet dry, THS, ...etc, etc....

I think drilling has a major role in this factor ... and if I understand it properly....a strong asym core set up properly for the bowler and their specific style / release can be a very versatile piece of equipment.....

Not much ...but just my .02 !

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JEFF
I think I'm finally starting to catch on.....

omegabowler · « **Reply #3 on:** November 23, 2004, 01:00:23 PM »

always follow the money!

Most if not all Mid price balls hit and carry just as good as the high end ball. especially on THS, why buy as 225 ball when a 150 ball does the same thing?

since bowlers are cheap, I would guess that proshops make a living off the mid to low end balls.

now have a fancy Aysmetrical ball that will react more specific and now it worth it.

factor in the average bowler, that watches the PBA, and see's guys are throwing stingers and low end track balls, V2's and winning and some guys with high end balls are getting thier but's creamed.

why not make a marketing ploy to increase revenue in a shrinking market that has a higher profit margin. sounds like good buisness to me.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny

Strider · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2004, 01:00:46 PM »

Maybe we want the cg/mb to matter.

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Penn State Proud

Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive

scotts33 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2004, 01:12:07 PM »

Just the fluffers that need help Steven.

Scott

Steven · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2004, 02:55:03 PM »

Good responses so far.

A few have suggested that asymmetric cores really benefit the release challenged, and on the other hand, those who already know how to throw the ball well prefer symmetric balls.

Is there general level truth to this?
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "

omegabowler · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2004, 03:29:27 PM »

I don't think that is the case. aysmertical balls have more dramatic resluts for the bigger handed people.

I can take a unleased drilled for flip an dit gives mea nice hard move on the backend. my high rev friend with similar pap and inverted ball track, has throwm my ball right after me and made it jump on the backend. as angular as a pearl reactive.

it can make a low rev look like he has hand also. so the talent of the driller has the biggest influence in reaction.

if you take a med speed low rev guy on a THS. drill smothing like a phenom with the pin 1" above midline 4 x 4.5 ( if that is the best layout) and he will be able to go as deep as he want as still turn the corner and carry. he may get more arc but a high rev guy could do tricks with that layout.

The MB mist be strong .014 and greater. lower mb balls are very close to symertical and are not as important.

so basically a Aysymertical ball can be drilled to acieve the results for more types of bolwers than a symetrical can. as these core evolve they will be better. the drill sheets just don't do them justice and driller need to be educated on them.

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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2004, 05:38:12 AM »

I agree with both Bowlfishing AND Omega.

Mass bias ball is more likely to be screwed up!

You see if mass bias is strong the reaction is changed dramatically based on drilling if a strong mass bias ball.

Symmetric ball is less likely to be screwed up but also less likely to perform on extreme conditions.

An example might make this clear.

Our local center used to put out a heavily oiled shot for some tourneys that had an out of bounds outside of 10. To play the shot correctly the easist line was like 14 to 11 at the breakpoint.

I had to great near heavy oil balls. One the powerfully mass biased AMF Extra.
Loved thet ball. I also had the great symmetric core EZ money.

Both balls could play the normal very wet top hat no problem. Maybe the EZ money needed to thrown one board wider or to get into the dry a little earlier to make it back. Both produced real nice results!

However once I got on to the above flat shot with glaze where one needed to cover very few boards and get hit it was not a fair fight. The Xtra could carry all day on this shot where very few boards were covered. It could generate a lot of hit in this small amount of ball movement after the break.

The powerful lumbering EZ money forced me to move out near the out of bounds line to get enough steam up to carry but had a lot of washouts playing on this trick line. The AMF Extra made the "Hard" shot easy for me!

REgards,

LUckylefty
PS both great balls, sort of like the difference between a power saw and a hand saw. Both are great when needed. Or in this case maybe the analogy would be the difference between a Driver (EZ money worked on wide open shot) and the Extra(a stinger two iron where one needed to thread the needle and still have power).

scotts33 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2004, 05:57:14 AM »

Symmetrical balls easier to read and not as much drastic change at break point. Asymmetrical will get you in trouble faster especially on tougher lane conditions not as much on house China. Some folks need to think about the difference in balls on tougher lane conditions. Anything will work on house China. IMO.

Rev challenged probably will like asymmetric balls better in most cases.

Scott

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #10 on:** November 24, 2004, 06:40:45 AM »

if your driller knows what they're doing...an asym piece can react just like a symetrical.......

Lucky...no...I disagree...see above....
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JEFF
I think I'm finally starting to catch on.....

tenpinspro · « **Reply #11 on:** November 24, 2004, 07:45:01 AM »

quote:
if your driller knows what they're doing...an asym piece can react just like a symmetrical.......

Bingo Jeff!

Steven, I see a big part of the change is because of their flexibility in drilling. They literally can do whatever you drill them to do. Yes, it may take some more education on your driller's behalf but so did the concept of a pin out. That was big at the time they stumbled upon that. Too many drillers at the time also thought that any pin out was bad and a mistake until they were educated in the drilling process. We're in the midst of the next level of technology, that's all.

FYI, for a mass bias to have some substantial influence, the magic number is .008 or more in differential. Some of the older asym balls didn't have as strong a differential so we really may have not seen the true effect of this.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2004, 10:10:03 AM »

quote:
if your driller knows what they're doing...an asym piece can react just like a symetrical.......

Jeff, the key to the proper drilling is where you said above.... "if your driller knows what he's doing, etc."....That is the problem right there. Nowadays, there are more drillers out there that don't know what they are doing than the ones that do. People in a lot of locations don't even have the benefit of having a driller that knows what he's doing on even symmetric cores, let alone tangle with an asymmetric core. I was "one of these people" until 2 months ago when Anne Marie Duggan opened a Pro Shop in Edmond, OK. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is any advantage in the asymmetric cores for the everyday 185-190-195 avg. house bowler like myself that misses his target 2-3 boards every shot andthat bowls in a couple of leagues and maybe practice once a week sometimes. Also a bowler that has only one release and not several releases.........I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

Steven · « **Reply #13 on:** November 24, 2004, 11:04:17 AM »

quote:
Symmetrical balls easier to read and not as much drastic change at break point. Asymmetrical will get you in trouble faster especially on tougher lane conditions not as much on house China. Some folks need to think about the difference in balls on tougher lane conditions. Anything will work on house China. IMO.

Rev challenged probably will like asymmetric balls better in most cases.

The above response from Scott reflected my thinking 100% when posting this thread, and I haven't read anything (yet) to the contrary to dispute these assertions.

Now, as far as Rick's response:

quote:
Steven, I see a big part of the change is because of their flexibility in drilling. They literally can do whatever you drill them to do. Yes, it may take some more education on your driller's behalf but so did the concept of a pin out.

Rick, I've heard great things about you, and I have no doubt that you're more than competent with drilling these bad boys. But as Brickguy pointed out, not all drillers are at your level. Even many of the good ones drill up so many different balls that they lose sights of the nuances of given pieces.

Regardless, in many cases, it's mismarked asymmetric MB's that cause problems. I had a Predator Pursuit drilled up identical to my Apex (same core/pin/cg/drill pattern), and the thing flared over my middle finger. Ebonite took it back, and I took a Predator Jungle Green (symmetric) as replacement just because I didn't want any more surprises. In another experience, I bought an X-Factor Deuce to replace an old El Nino Gold (same layout and drill specs), and the reactions were night and day. If I'm going to pop $200 for a new ball, I want to feel comfortable, ahead of time, with how the ball will react.

Anyway, given all the potential problems, coupled with a lack of real benefit on most THS's, I still don't get the dive into asymmetric cores UNLESS you want to create a dynamic reaction that's difficult to produce with standard equipment. I would think this case to be the exception, and not the rule.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "

Author Topic: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores? (Read 1518 times)

Steven

What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Ragnar

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Jeffrevs

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

omegabowler

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Strider

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

scotts33

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Steven

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

omegabowler

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

LuckyLefty

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

scotts33

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Jeffrevs

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

tenpinspro

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Brickguy221

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?

Steven

Re: What's with the shift to Asymmetric Cores?