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Author Topic: high average bowlers  (Read 11973 times)

badbeard

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high average bowlers
« on: September 13, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »
why is it high average above 220 want to be on leagues that the handicap is based off 210 or lower?

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milorafferty

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 07:03:35 PM »
Other than the ones who want to bowl with their significant other, I think it's a ego thing. They just want to be a big fish in a small pond.
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badbeard

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 08:03:08 PM »
where I bowl they have about 20 guys that carry 230 + in a 16  lane house  and they do not have a  team average
cap  so they load a few 5 man teams up and win most years and we are losing teams. because they feel they have no chance against these guys. still the high average guys want more of an advantage 


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JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 08:22:20 PM »
why is it high average above 220 want to be on leagues that the handicap is based off 210 or lower?
 

Any 220 bowler that enters a handicap league based on 210 has a 10 point advantage on all the bowlers! To start with the handicap should be based on the average of the highest bowler in the league. The percentage of that handicap is always a topic argued!

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bass

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 08:27:14 PM »
Maybe there aren't any scratch leagues in their area.

I know I bowl in the only scratch league left in my city.

And to be honest this one shouldn't be either but they never even bring up the idea of going to handicap at their annual meeting either.


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badbeard

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 08:50:32 PM »
we had a fight to get this league to use 90 percent of team average even though the higher average team still gets the advantage. I average 200 so this is not sour grapes but i see the older bowlers having to bowl mixed doubles only  when they can no longer compete with the young 230 average bowler who still needs a 10 or 20 percent advantage before he will bowl with out crying.

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ccrider

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 05:57:46 AM »
I do nor see that fhe 220 bowler has an ad advantage. Odds are the 220 bowler is going fowl around 220.  The 185 bowler is more likely to bowl 200 or higher.

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Bowl_Freak

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 06:12:27 AM »
Apparently to many of the bowlers these days, the 220 bowlers dont belong in any type of league except scratch ones, but where would you find one of these these days? And if they join any other leagues and bowl good, people complain. Its a lose/lose situation for us. ALL THE 220+ AVERAGE BOWLERS, QUIT THE GAME CAUSE YOUR TOO GOOD!!!! LMAO.


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On Further Review

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 06:21:03 AM »
Every handicap league should have its handicap based as high or higher than the top averager in the league. Any bowler with an average higher than that, like a 220 bowler when handicap is 90% of 210 handicap has a big advantage.



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Edited by On Further Review on 9/14/2011 at 6:21 AM
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kidlost2000

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 06:40:05 AM »
Higher average bowlers do have the advantage. Do the math and you will see. If 185 average bowlers are going to shoot 200 all the time then their average will reflect it. Since they are not, do the numbers. Also know the lower your average, the bigger the disadvantage.
 
Handicap 80% of 220
 
 Bowler A Averages 225
 Bowler B Averages 185, his handicap 28 pins
 Bowler C Averages 140, his handicap 64 pins
 
Bowler A shoots 216 (9 below average)
Bowler B shoots 185 +28 handicap for 213
Bowler C 140 +64 handicap for 204
 
Bowler A wins without shooting his average.
 
 
Lets try 80% of 210 with the same bowlers
 
Bowler B now has 20 pins handicap
Bowler C now has 56 pins handicap 
 
Bowler A shoots 216 ( 9 below average)
Bowler B shoots 185 +20 pins = 205
Bowler C shoots 140 +56 pins= 196
 
Bowler A wins again. Yes all bowlers on any given night can go above or below their average, but the higher average bowler has the bigger advantage especially in the 80% of  210 league.
 
That is why I try and score has high as possible every game, I want to win.
 
 
 
 
 


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badbeard

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 06:53:36 AM »
  check this out            United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of
placing bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as
possible for competition against each other.
Does any handicap used by a league equalize competition?
The results of an extensive four year study of handicap leagues -- mixed, all women and
all men -- disclosed that the handicap percentages 75%, 80% and 90% do NOT achieve
this goal as illustrated by the results from the study as follows:
Championship Won by Championship Won by
Handicap Team with Average Below Team with Average Above
Percent Median in the League Median in the League
70 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
75 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
80 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
85 6 out of 100 94 out of 100
90 11 out of 100 89 out of 100
95 24 out of 100 76 out of 100
100 30 out of 100 70 out of 100
Even at 100% handicap, as the above chart shows, the higher average teams or bowlers
still have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships are still won by the higher
average team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league
championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.
You must always look at the difference in averages well as handicap. In the table the
higher average team total is 73% or 223 pins higher than the lower average team.
As shown below, when both teams bowl their exact averages; the higher average team
always wins unless the handicap is 100%, then the teams tie.
BASE 200
TEAM A TEAM B
Average 80% 90% 100% Average 80% 90% 100%
Linda 120 64 72 80 Dave 150 40 45 50
Dick 115 68 76 85 Patti 167 26 29 33
Kathy 95 84 94 105 Scott 185 12 13 15
Jeff 135 52 58 65 Terri 188 9 10 12
Sandi 142 46 52 58 Lisa 140 48 54 60
607 314 352 393 830 135 151 170
Average + 80% = 921 Average + 80% = 965
Average + 90% = 959 Average + 90% = 981
Average + 100% = 1000 Average + 100% = 1000

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JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 09:45:51 AM »

In all the years I've been on BR I talked about handicap and made a LOT of enemies. I showed number to indicate that High Average bowlers always had an advantage in Handicap leagues .. especially when there was a percent less then 100. Even when 100% was used the higher average had an advantage due to consistency. I agree with the article provided and feel sorry for the bowlers who enter handicap leagues with large FRONT END prizes with handicaps lower then 100% .. it's giving your money away!

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txbowler

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 12:04:44 PM »
Here is the problem you sometimes face
 
A team of family bowlers joins our league.  (36 week league).  The first 1/2 of the league all 5 of them average between 170-179.  Our HDCP is set at 80% of the difference between the teams average.  As of week 18 they are in 9th place out of 14 teams.  On week 19, all 5 start averaging 200-205 week after week, easily winning 3 or 4 every week against every team they bowl.  They climb all the way to 3-4th place before their averages finally catch up with them and they lose some the last month of the season to finish 5th I believe.
 
If we had set the HDCP percentage at 100%, I would be willing to bet, that their organized average manipulation would have paid off with a league championship.  This is what some leagues face.   Setting it below 100% does penalize lower average teams, but it also prevents teams who are manipulating the system from winning as well.  You can't have it both ways.
 


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kidlost2000

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 12:56:36 PM »
In any systems if someone wants to cheat they will. Still if you want to win, average 220+ and get others to join your team. You will be able to do so.
 
Most handicap leagues I come across pay out evenly top to bottom so that "everyone" gets a decent amount back and winning  vs anything less is not much of a money difference. 


"1 of 1." 
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trash heap

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 01:04:58 PM »
txbowler,

 

The league's low percent of handicap wasn't the reason for this team lack of first place. The reason is they started too far back in the standings when they made their run. You are not going to stop a team from cheating. Your league's decision at 80% is ridiculous. You might as well make the league scratch  because that is how the standings will be each year. Highest Average Team 1 - Lowest Average Team Last. Usually the only time it deviates if you have a team cheating.

 

We see it at the start of every year, plenty of bowlers pace themselves at the beginning. They don't want a high average.



txbowler wrote on 9/14/2011 12:04 PM:
Here is the problem you sometimes face

 

A team of family bowlers joins our league.  (36 week league).  The first 1/2 of the league all 5 of them average between 170-179.  Our HDCP is set at 80% of the difference between the teams average.  As of week 18 they are in 9th place out of 14 teams.  On week 19, all 5 start averaging 200-205 week after week, easily winning 3 or 4 every week against every team they bowl.  They climb all the way to 3-4th place before their averages finally catch up with them and they lose some the last month of the season to finish 5th I believe.

 

If we had set the HDCP percentage at 100%, I would be willing to bet, that their organized average manipulation would have paid off with a league championship.  This is what some leagues face.   Setting it below 100% does penalize lower average teams, but it also prevents teams who are manipulating the system from winning as well.  You can't have it both ways.

 


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