Author Topic: high average bowlers (Read 11975 times)

badbeard · « **on:** September 13, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »

why is it high average above 220 want to be on leagues that the handicap is based off 210 or lower?

Gunny · « **Reply #31 on:** September 15, 2011, 07:48:28 AM »

the last 4 years in the two handicap leagues I bowled in, the top avg team did not win. neither did the 2nd or 3rd avg. team. My team was the 4th highest, and we won the first two years, and came in second the next two. Handicap was 90% of 220.

When I was asked to join a league in a different house, handicap was 90% of 210. 26 teams teams in the league. We were 9th highest in avg, and we won the league on the final day-position round. We didn't ask for more handicap, and voted down the motion of 90% of 230. Top team was a 1101 team avg, and several other teams in the 1080+ avg.(5 man teams) Our team was 1006. Highest avg team finished 3rd, second highest team finished 6. We did our best bowling just after the halfway point and had a 17 point advantage with 7 weeks left. Don't matter what the handicap is, YOU STILL HAVE TO BOWL PEOPLE!

My new league I just joined voted in 90% of 230, and a 10 pin drop rule. After the first 4 weeks, the highest avg team is sitting in 8th. We took two games from them this past tuesday. Their team avg is 1160 for a 5 man team. Ours is 1014. The two games we won, we stole from them in the tenth frame, capitalizing off there mistakes, and we made some good shots. Once again I re-iterate, YOU STILL HAVE TO BOWL! We did! We Never gave up!

My point? If you go in with the mentality that your gonna lose, well your gonna lose. No matter what the handicap issue is!

There is no scratch leagues in my area, but if there was, I would bowl in it. If I lose, I lose. And if I win, than I win. But I will not bitch about the guy being 20 pins higher in avg than me. I will just try and get better, and try and beat him next time we meet up.

Most people bitching about handicap are the ones that want to win, but don't want to get better to have that opportunity to win. They say they're there for fun and good times, but also want to be able to win the league. But yet they bowl in only one league and those 3 games are the only 3 that they bowl a week. Maybe an occasional 3 games on a weekend once or twice a month. I say to them, "Practice, and you will get better, more consistent, and have a better chance. The leagues will give you some handicap to get you close, but you must get better to get over that last speed bump, and don't expect it to be handed to you."

------------------------------------------------

A bizarre incident occurred in the outskirts of an American suburb.....It was later revealed that the terrible disaster had been caused by the T-Virus.....a mutagentic toxin created by international enterprise Umbrella Incorporated for use in bio-weapon experiments.

Don't worry the zombies are looking for brains, you're safe.....

Edited by Gunny on 9/15/2011 at 7:50 AM

SrKegler · « **Reply #32 on:** September 15, 2011, 08:14:12 AM »

I used to be one of the higher average bowlers. The problem with handicapping and sand bagging could be solved very easily. Every league starts the new year off with everyone establishing new averages. Why??? To solve the problem, simply continue the average from the year before. Maybe keep a running average of the last 100 games. I'd like to see a sandbagger finesse that. The majority of the bowlers are returning to the same league, averages are available. Any new members should have their league sheet from the previous year.

Have Balls - Will Travel

RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones

usfan51473 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 15, 2011, 08:36:54 AM »

It's been my experience that guys that do this are trying to boost their ego. They feel they can't compete in in leauges where they might be equal, so they come to leauges where they already have a built in advantage to beat up on lower average bowlers. They are also the first to cry foul when the handicap is proposed to be changed to make things fair for everyone. I used to bowl in a scratch doubles leauge. The max avg. was 390. All the high average bowlers complained and they raised the max to 410. The leauge folded in less than two years.

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #34 on:** September 15, 2011, 10:31:20 AM »

Not picking on you usfan51473, but your post has something in it that I am going to highlight and use, because it is a microcosm of the entire situation.

usfan51473 wrote on 9/15/2011 8:36 AM:
It's been my experience that guys that do this are trying to boost their ego. They feel they can't compete in in leauges where they might be equal, so they come to leauges where they already have a built in advantage to beat up on lower average bowlers. They are also the first to cry foul when the handicap is proposed to be changed to make things fair for everyone. I used to bowl in a scratch doubles leauge. The max avg. was 390. All the high average bowlers complained and they raised the max to 410. The leauge folded in less than two years.

Do you see the problem yet? Its the part where you think ANY handicap rule would make things "fair for everyone".

THERE IS NO "FAIR" HANDICAP RULE.

The "high average" guys didn't just wake up one morning to find they were good, they worked their tails off to get that way. How is it "fair", in ANY way, for them to have to "give away" what they worked so hard to earn?

The "high average" guys say "we're being asked to give too much", and the low average guys say "you aren't giving us enough". There is NO WAY to resolve this, because they are both valid, philosophical points, that no rule, or no %, can ever satisfy everyone.

So, who would get to decide what the definition of "fair" is?

If you're tired of getting beat, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, don't just sit around crying about not getting enough handicap to make things "fair" and "equal" for you.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #35 on:** September 15, 2011, 01:27:40 PM »

I'm going to take a crack at what a FAIR HANDICAP is.

Based on average established in 27 games .. two bowlers bowling against each other have an equal chance of winning.

It might seem that the higher average bowler is more consistent .. but the average is just that .. AVERAGE! The lower average bowler will occasionally have a HIGHER then average game but there is also the HIGHER AVERAGE guy will occasionally have an ABOVE AVERAGE game.

100% difference between the two averages should be giving to the lower average bowler! It amounts to .. most pins over average!!

That is FAIR!

jaydee · « **Reply #36 on:** September 15, 2011, 01:30:05 PM »

The Bowling Pariah wrote on 9/15/2011 10:31 AM:
Not picking on you usfan51473, but your post has something in it that I am going to highlight and use, because it is a microcosm of the entire situation.

usfan51473 wrote on 9/15/2011 8:36 AM:

It's been my experience that guys that do this are trying to boost their ego. They feel they can't compete in in leauges where they might be equal, so they come to leauges where they already have a built in advantage to beat up on lower average bowlers. They are also the first to cry foul when the handicap is proposed to be changed to make things fair for everyone. I used to bowl in a scratch doubles leauge. The max avg. was 390. All the high average bowlers complained and they raised the max to 410. The leauge folded in less than two years.

Do you see the problem yet? Its the part where you think ANY handicap rule would make things "fair for everyone".

THERE IS NO "FAIR" HANDICAP RULE.

The "high average" guys didn't just wake up one morning to find they were good, they worked their tails off to get that way. How is it "fair", in ANY way, for them to have to "give away" what they worked so hard to earn?

The "high average" guys say "we're being asked to give too much", and the low average guys say "you aren't giving us enough". There is NO WAY to resolve this, because they are both valid, philosophical points, that no rule, or no %, can ever satisfy everyone.

So, who would get to decide what the definition of "fair" is?

If you're tired of getting beat, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, don't just sit around crying about not getting enough handicap to make things "fair" and "equal" for you.

I think he's talking about people who avoid the competitive leagues so they can dominate the money in less competitive leagues. Do you not see a problem with that? While there may not be an absolute "fair" in terms of handicap, surely there's "more fair" and "less fair". Do you not see that a 225+ bowler joining a 100% of 200 handicap league is "less fair" than same bowler joining an 80% of 220 league?

I think the main point trying to be made here, is if you're a good bowler, you should make an effort to join a league that resembles your level. This is opposed to cherry-picking the lower guys with the attitude "hey if you don't like losing, maybe you should practice more". It's called sportsmanship.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #37 on:** September 15, 2011, 01:51:27 PM »

jaydee wrote on 9/15/2011 1:30 PM:

I think he's talking about people who avoid the competitive leagues so they can dominate the money in less competitive leagues. Do you not see a problem with that? While there may not be an absolute "fair" in terms of handicap, surely there's "more fair" and "less fair". Do you not see that a 225+ bowler joining a 100% of 200 handicap league is "less fair" than same bowler joining an 80% of 220 league?

I think the main point trying to be made here, is if you're a good bowler, you should make an effort to join a league that resembles your level. This is opposed to cherry-picking the lower guys with the attitude "hey if you don't like losing, maybe you should practice more". It's called sportsmanship.

So if I am a 230+ average bowler, I should only bowl in a league with comparable competition? How many bowlers of this caliber do you think can get together at the same time on the same day? I think it is unrealistic to think high average bowlers try to join non-competitive leagues in order to take their money and am willing to bet the actual number is very small. I would counter there are more low average bowlers averaging low on purpose for their benefit. Personally, I try to figure out what days I can bowl and then try to find a league nearby that suits this need.

Let's say a bowler averaging 230 is bowling against a 190 average bowler. How many times a year will the 230 average bowler have games of 280 or higher? How many times a year will the 190 average bowler have games of 240 or higher? Especially with today's equipment and lane conditions, the deviation of low score to high score for the lower average bowler will be much greater, and it would be easy for the lower average bowlers to shoot scores high enough to shut out the higher average bowler.

Chances are you will not have a system in place that everyone will agree on. Just like in any negotiation, both sides have to give something up.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

trash heap · « **Reply #38 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:01:05 PM »

It amazes me how this concept of handicap is difficult for some bowlers.

In a THS Leagues 100 % of "highest average in league" is the correct setup. Anything else is wrong.

badbeard · « **Reply #39 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:03:36 PM »

some guys could practice 5 days a week and not have the natural ablities that others have . a friend of mine once said to me I don't get it this is only walking and rolling a ball.why can't you do that as well as me( he was a natural.) first 300 at 12 yr old that said we are not all equal to each other and that is why we have handicaps. So we can play nice with each other. lol so I say make the league as fair as you can. and if you are a great bowler don't cry if you are not given an advantage over me. be proud that you gave me an even shake. Sportsman ship goes a long way in having leagues remain full.

trash heap · « **Reply #40 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:05:05 PM »

If someone is averaging 190 and shooting 240 games (50 pins over) they must be shooting equally the same amount of 140 games. Who wins on those nights?

spmcgivern wrote on 9/15/2011 1:51 PM:

Let's say a bowler averaging 230 is bowling against a 190 average bowler. How many times a year will the 230 average bowler have games of 280 or higher? How many times a year will the 190 average bowler have games of 240 or higher? Especially with today's equipment and lane conditions, the deviation of low score to high score for the lower average bowler will be much greater, and it would be easy for the lower average bowlers to shoot scores high enough to shut out the higher average bowler.

Chances are you will not have a system in place that everyone will agree on. Just like in any negotiation, both sides have to give something up.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

spmcgivern · « **Reply #41 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:32:42 PM »

trash heap wrote on 9/15/2011 2:05 PM:
If someone is averaging 190 and shooting 240 games (50 pins over) they must be shooting equally the same amount of 140 games. Who wins on those nights?

spmcgivern wrote on 9/15/2011 1:51 PM:

Let's say a bowler averaging 230 is bowling against a 190 average bowler. How many times a year will the 230 average bowler have games of 280 or higher? How many times a year will the 190 average bowler have games of 240 or higher? Especially with today's equipment and lane conditions, the deviation of low score to high score for the lower average bowler will be much greater, and it would be easy for the lower average bowlers to shoot scores high enough to shut out the higher average bowler.

Chances are you will not have a system in place that everyone will agree on. Just like in any negotiation, both sides have to give something up.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Agreed. But is it fair for any particular game the higher average bowler cannot win even if he shoots 300?

I'm not saying I don't want it to be unfair towards me, I just don't want it to be unfair towards the lower average bowler. I bowl in a Peterson point league with individual handicaps based on 90% of 230 and a league with 90 % of the team difference. To me, basing it on the team difference is the best way, but to say 100% or more is "fair" just isn't.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

badbeard · « **Reply #42 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:44:49 PM »

trash heap read the study by the bowling ass. it is interesting and factual

trash heap · « **Reply #43 on:** September 15, 2011, 03:02:26 PM »

Now there is something I agree with as far as handicap goes. 300 score should be the max. If someone (35 handicap) shoots a 270 against someone (0 handicap) shooting a 300. My opinion is it should be at least a tie. Of course the rules state that the 305 score should win. I haven't seen this happen, but if it did, I am sure the person shooting the scratch score wouldn't be too happy.

spmcgivern wrote on 9/15/2011 2:32 PM:

Agreed. But is it fair for any particular game the higher average bowler cannot win even if he shoots 300?
I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

trash heap · « **Reply #44 on:** September 15, 2011, 03:06:22 PM »

A link???

badbeard wrote on 9/15/2011 2:44 PM:trash heap read the study by the bowling ass. it is interesting and factual

badbeard · « **Reply #45 on:** September 15, 2011, 09:32:57 PM »

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rules/pdfs/Handicap%20Facts.pdf

Author Topic: high average bowlers (Read 11975 times)

badbeard

high average bowlers

Gunny

Re: high average bowlers

SrKegler

Re: high average bowlers

usfan51473

Re: high average bowlers

The Bowling Pariah

Re: high average bowlers

JOE FALCO

Re: high average bowlers

jaydee

Re: high average bowlers

spmcgivern

Re: high average bowlers

trash heap

Re: high average bowlers

badbeard

Re: high average bowlers

trash heap

Re: high average bowlers

spmcgivern

Re: high average bowlers

badbeard

Re: high average bowlers

trash heap

Re: high average bowlers

trash heap

Re: high average bowlers

badbeard

Re: high average bowlers