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Author Topic: high average bowlers  (Read 11980 times)

badbeard

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high average bowlers
« on: September 13, 2011, 10:26:30 AM »
why is it high average above 220 want to be on leagues that the handicap is based off 210 or lower?


 

The Bowling Pariah

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2011, 11:14:07 PM »
While it is impossible to argue against factual numbers, it is possible to argue this.

 

 The study PRE-SUPPOSES that equalizing ones chances of winning, irregardless of talent or ability, is a good thing. Problem is, that isn't how real life works now, is it?

 

 Does somebody make employers give us ALL the exact same wage whether we can do the job right or not? NO, THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

 

 Do short people get to make taller people have their legs shortened because it isn't "fair" for others to be taller than them? NO, THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

 

 Do ugly people get to make pretty people have plastic surgery so that they won't make the ugly people look as ugly? NO, THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

 

 Do uncoordinated, physically challenged people get to nullify and override the advantage that the gifted and truly talented athlete has?  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO WITH 100% HANDICAP!  THAT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HOW IT WORKS.

 

 I'm really sorry if there are those out there who will just never be able to reach that elite level, but not everybody is SUPPOSED to be able to reach it.

 

 Giving you SOME handicap to help you isn't offensive to me (even though 90% is on the verge of good taste) or to many higher level bowlers, but asking me to give up ALL THAT I HAVE WORKED SO HARD TO ATTAIN AND LET YOU BE MY "EQUAL" is just asking too much.

 

 I/WE worked hard to build that advantage over bowlers who couldn't/wouldn't do the same. Now, you want me/us to just give it back to you for free, all because you say it isn't "fair" to you?
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Maine Man

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2011, 01:00:53 AM »
100% Handicap does (2) things:

 

1) Does nothing to discourage sandbagging, period.  In fact, it almost promotes it to an extent.  At 100%, a bowler could throw 10 pins below their normal average for the entire first half of the season, and get a team of 5 players doing it, then that's 50 sticks a game, or 150 sticks for a three game set.  That is only (1) missed spare per person on the team, per game, and there is NO WAY you could prove intent with that low of a number, but you can see how big of a difference it makes when you add it up for an entire team.  Now, this same team, once they get enough games in at the end of the first half of the season, can start bowling well again because their averages won't go up as fast since they have probably 45-50 games in on the season.  This means they have the benefit of extra sticks they wouldn't normally have if they weren't sandbagging, and can dominate the second half of the season and win the league.  Go to 90% handicap, for example, and since you get less sticks the lower your average is, compared to a bowler at the average cap, then there isn't as much incentive to sandbag, period.  If you are going to get penalized pins for intentionally bowling below your average, then why do it?

 

2)  It also does not encourage lower average bowlers to improve their game.  I feel like the bowlers who put in the time and become good at the sport of bowling deserve some sort of reward for their effort, and that can be in the form of handicap that is less than 100%.  A 140 average bowler has no incentive to get better if they are getting the same amount of pins per game as the guy averaging 235.  I feel this is wrong, and by making the hanidcap a lower %, you are encouraging that 140 bowler to get better, so that they will be penalized less pins by increasing their average.  Now, people will tell me that many bowlers don't want to spend the time getting better and should not be forced to do so based on the handicap system.  Well, I say to them that why even bowl a league for prize money and awards if you don't want to get better? Just go in and have a few beers and bowl open practice instead.  It works both ways with that argument, so don't even go there.

 

The one thing any study doesn't realize is that yes, in theory 100% handicap would "level the playing field", and the USBC study was still saying that even at 100% handicap the higher average team still wins more of the time.  But, this is because the higher average team is more consistent from game to game and bowler to bowler, hence the higher averages, so that is why they win more games and not because of the handicap.  USBC says handicap should be around 111% or so to make the field truly "fair", which is absolutely crazy.  You think people sandbag now, try and run a league with that kind of handicap system, it will be out of control.  Those are my statements on handicap, and I'm sticking to them.



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Edited by Maine Man on 9/16/2011 at 1:00 AM
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JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2011, 06:25:12 AM »
1) Does nothing to discourage sandbagging, period.  In fact, it almost promotes it to an extent.  At 100%, a bowler could throw 10 pins below their normal average for the entire first half of the season, and get a team of 5 players doing it, then that's 50 sticks a game, or 150 sticks for a three game set.  That is only (1) missed spare per person on the team, per game, and there is NO WAY you could prove intent with that low of a number, but you can see how big of a difference it makes when you add it up for an entire team.  Now, this same team, once they get enough games in at the end of the first half of the season, can start bowling well again because their averages won't go up as fast since they have probably 45-50 games in on the season.  This means they have the benefit of extra sticks they wouldn't normally have if they weren't sandbagging, and can dominate the second half of the season and win the league.  Go to 90% handicap, for example, and since you get less sticks the lower your average is, compared to a bowler at the average cap, then there isn't as much incentive to sandbag, period.  If you are going to get penalized pins for intentionally bowling below your average, then why do it?

So we are describing not ONE individual who sandbags but a team of 5 that does it. WOW! Must be one heck of a big prize fund. I don't think I ever found A bowler who did this ..you create a situation where there is ONE TEAM in a PARTICULAR LEAGUE. We have trouble getting 4 man teams yet you describe 5 man teams .. I guess you made your point!If I was this leery of my fellow bowlers I'd probable would never bowl league again.
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EagleHunter

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2011, 06:26:27 AM »
Handicap is one of the biggest problems in all of bowling.  Another is the fact that many "bowlers" are unable to see outside of their own "little world."

 

Let me pose this question to those that think handicap levels are too low...

 

Why don't you institute individual average caps for your league?  Cap an individual at 200 or 210...then you'll have a league with more parity and less of a problem with handicap.  Every league is "invitational" by nature, so establishing rules that prohibit certain bowlers is well within the leagues "rights."  In addition, according to many of you that complain about the high average bowler, the high average bowler is the minority so the league shouldn't lose too many members, right?

JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2011, 06:33:10 AM »
  


 I/WE worked hard to build that advantage over bowlers who couldn't/wouldn't do the same. Now, you want me/us to just give it back to you for free, all because you say it isn't "fair" to you?

Don't want you to give anything BACK .. just suggesting if you proved yourself to be better (via average) you should either bowl with better bowlers or give your opponents a chance at beating you!
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

EagleHunter

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2011, 06:41:19 AM »

 To be honest...the below quote may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard (with all due respect).  A bowler gives his opponents a chance at beating him by making poor shots.  If you do not GET this simple point, why are you even discussing this?

Maybe the Yankees should let every team start off with 5 runs before they begin.  Perhaps the USA "Dream Team" should have allowed the rest of the world to start off with 50 points...so they would have a chance to beat them.  Maybe instead of handicap, all better bowlers should have to start off with 3 open frames...would that be more FAIR to you?  (SMH)



JOE FALCO wrote on 9/16/2011 6:33 AM:
  



 I/WE worked hard to build that advantage over bowlers who couldn't/wouldn't do the same. Now, you want me/us to just give it back to you for free, all because you say it isn't "fair" to you?

Don't want you to give anything BACK .. just suggesting if you proved yourself to be better (via average) you should either bowl with better bowlers or give your opponents a chance at beating you!
 
Edited by EagleHunter on 9/16/2011 at 6:41 AM

JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2011, 07:31:10 AM »
To be honest...the below quote may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard (with all due respect).  A bowler gives his opponents a chance at beating him by making poor shots.  If you do not GET this simple point, why are you even discussing this?

????????????????
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JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2011, 07:34:47 AM »
Maybe all PROS should play against all amateurs!!
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trash heap

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2011, 07:36:16 AM »
Let me rephrase, If you bowl in a league that the pattern is "THS",  handicap should be 100% of "highest average in league".

 

Anyone bowling on a "THS" should NOT complain about handicap! You all talk tough about how hard you work on your game, when in fact, your honor scores are thrown on the "EASIEST SHOT IN BOWLING". You have not proved anything with your 200 plus average. So quit your crying about lower average bowlers getting an advantage.

 

Bowl on tougher conditions and then see where your abilities really are.

 



trash heap wrote on 9/15/2011 2:01 PM:
It amazes me how this concept of handicap is difficult for some bowlers.


 


In a THS Leagues 100 % of "highest average in league" is the correct setup. Anything else is wrong.
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storm making it rain

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2011, 07:59:10 AM »
Oh the constant handicap debate.  Here's my take from a bowling center perspective as well as a high average bowler.

 

 

            I may not be that old (31) but I remember the days when all the bowling center had to do was open the doors and the place was full of leagues (2-4 shifts per day).  Now walk into your center and see how many people are bowling.  I remember the days when a 200 average actually meant something, a 300 game was quite an accomplishment, and a 800 series was almost unheard of.  Now of course we all know those things are happening almost every day in every league.  Bowling center's (mine included) started putting our "cake" shots to entice bowlers to bowl at their centers.  And by golly it worked for a little bit, but the game has changed and we all know that people.  We are in a recreational period in our sport and nobody knows if it will ever come back to the "good old days."  So now what we have is putting people together (developed & non developed bowlers) into the same league, why? Because there just aren't enough bowlers to go around anymore.  But guess what happens when you do that?  The high average teams end up winning every year and the "non developed" recreational "drink beer with my friends" guys lose interest and move onto something else.  Don't get me wrong, you'll always have your donater's in every league.  But when the percentage of donater's reaches a high level, the leagues will simply fall apart without some sort of "level playing field" system.  Handicap is needed in bowling to create diversity with in the group, because guess what, 97% of all league bowlers don't practice, don't want to practice, and just want to have fun.  100% handicap should almost always be used in today's bowling environment, just look at the numbers and they will tell the story.  If you look deeper all of our stats in bowling are basically based off of our average's aren't they?  If that's the case, on any given game or series shouldn't the team that bowls the highest amount of pins over their average win the game or series??  Well guess what if I average 240 and bowl in a league that is let's say 90% of 220, I can bowl well under my average and still win points.  Is that statement not true people???  Does that seem fair to the 180 guy who bowls above his average and still LOSES...I'll answer that for you NO IT IS NOT FAIR!!

 

              Now I'm a higher average bowler.  Our area doesn't have a scratch league, I have kids so I can't travel to find one, and I love bowling.  What are my options??? I can bowl with the guys, have some fun, and give up alot of pins each night in our 100% of 240 league.  I'm like many of you who have worked hard to become pretty good at this game over the years, but it's really that simple, there just aren't that many guys who do that.  A few years ago I tried to run some "pot games" after league for about a month.  At the time I was averaging about 230 and I had guys that average 215 asking "how many pins do I get?" did you read 215 guy asking for pins?? But guess what the 215 guy is smart he can't really compete with the 230 guy on a level playing field.  Ok ok he certainly can win a game here or there but let's say we bowl 10 games, the 230 guy will win 80% of the time no???  Now add that concept to the team game of our leagues.  What happens when a higher average team bowls a lower average team heads up no sticks??? You got it, the higher average team will indeed win 80% or higher of the time.  So how do we even out this dilemna??? HANDICAP is the only way, well unless you want to bowl with 3-4 other guys in a league of 220+ bowlers that is.  Now I don't believe 116% handicap is the way to go certainly, but I believe the handicap should be somewhere based on the highest average in the league at 100%.  Did you read that I'm a higher average bowler saying that it should be 100% of somewhere near the highest average in the league??? Because guess what happens when it's not set around that number (anybody anybody)  The league will almost certainly FAIL...

 

 

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

 

That's my 2 cents on it people.  I've been around this business/sport my whole life and while this game continues to change WE as bowlers need to embrace the change and try to make it better and more fair to the new people that WANT to bowl but don't NEED to bowl if they feel they don't have any chance to win.  We should WANT to try and make these new people better so they can love the sport as much as we all do. 



EagleHunter

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2011, 08:08:46 AM »
 



JOE FALCO wrote on 9/16/2011 7:34 AM:
Maybe all PROS should play against all amateurs!!


Since you didn't understand what I was talking about, here is the quote I was referring to:
"give your opponents a chance at beating you!"

How often does anyone WANT to give their opponent a chance to beat them?  If you wish to do that good for you.  I do not know of ANYONE who goes out looking to give their opponent the best chance possible at beating them.

As for Pros playing with Amateurs...I am 100% for it!  Any Amateur worth their salt WANTS to compete against the best STRAIGHT UP, to see how good they are and how much they need to improve.  And if, by the grace of God or their own ability, they manage the beat the Pro, it will give them a boost of confidence, not to mention it will be a REAL accomplishment.

The big problem here...the one that no one wants to admit...is this issue is 100% about the money.  For some reason, bowling has gone the way of the nanny state in thinking that it should "spread the wealth" around.  Why should the more talented players win the money?  Darn it...I paid into the system too and I should get my fair share...who cares how good we are?

Again, for those of you clamoring that handicap is unfair for the lower average bowler, here are two solutions:
1.  Eliminate ALL prize money and jackpots (so the higher average players all leave...since they are ONLY there for your money, right?).  Then you'll be competing for the fun and sport of it.

2.  Institute an individual (NOT a team) cap for ALL league members.  Make it 200 or 210...then you'll have a league of EQUAL caliber bowlers who won't need handicap, right?

So many of you complain about the high average players killing your leagues, why not just eliminate them completely?  Of course, when some of the remaining players actually get better, you'll probably have to kick them out too...but that's okay, after all the high average bowler is the minority, so you'll be able to fill those spots quite easily.

 

Again, so many of you have ZERO ability to see outside of yourself and your little pond.  THAT is why bowling is in the shape it is.

JOE FALCO

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2011, 08:33:12 AM »

The only reason it is suggested that high average bowlers move on .. is due to the fact that they do not accept a leveling off of the averages. If we are bowling to see how close we come to each other ..what diffeerece if you have a 230 average and I have a 175. When we are competing for a prize (even if it's a paper doll) what chance do I have if you give me a handicap of 90% of 210? Take the paper doll and go home .. save me the fee of bowling!

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EagleHunter

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2011, 08:44:20 AM »
As for the proprietor side of the problem...it's really quite simple...they were/are LAZY!

Let's be honest, which of the following options would be the best for bowling:
1.  Leagues created with average-based divisions (no handicap), allowing bowlers an incentive to get better and a visible option of what is next in their career process.

2.  Leagues created by throwing everyone in together (must have handicap) regardless of skill.

Short of a FUN league (to define:  A FUN league is one where the lineage fee is paid and NOTHING else.  No prize fund, no jackpots...you're just there for the fun and the people), anyone being HONEST would have to select option 1.  Yet why is it that option 2 is pretty much the only option out there?

Because proprietors are LAZY!  It is much easier to lump everyone together and let them "sort themselves out" (which has led to many sorting themselves out of bowling altogether), rather than do the work needed to make option 1 work.

If you are a high average bowler, or know some high average bowlers, ask yourself this...how is it that so many of these bowlers know one another?  Around here (Detroit area) a high average bowler could walk into just about any center and find more than a few bowlers that he/she knows.  Have your average bowler walk into a center other than their own...they will most likely know NO ONE. 

And why should they?  Most average bowlers don't know anything other than their home center and their league.  Why is that?  Because bowling (largely proprietors) has FAILED to give them the opportunity to compete (should they choose to) with others of LIKE ability.

As a youth, I bowled in a scratch travel league that had divisions (you didn't have to be a high average player to bowl).  All of the bowlers in a division knew each other.  We also knew who the bowlers were in the upper divisions, and we WANTED to get there.  The league worked and is still in existance MANY years after I was there.

What does the average player have to aspire to?  The only thing he/she sees is their own center, with those mean high average players always winning and the rest complaining how it isn't fair.

Handicap is NOT a solution to anything...it is merely a weak band-aid for a much larger problem, LAZINESS.  Bowlers, both average and higher average, want to bowl.  They do NOT want to have to do the leg-work that a proprietor should be doing to put together leagues with divisions based on skill.  Proprietors are too LAZY to do the work, because "the bowlers just keep coming back."  Except that they aren't.

This is the ONE industry problem that should be addressed by BPAA, USBC, and any other integer that claims to have the best interest of bowling at heart.  Fix this problem and the band-aid isnt' needed.
 
Edited by EagleHunter on 9/16/2011 at 8:53 AM

spmcgivern

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Re: high average bowlers
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2011, 08:45:09 AM »
My question to any lower average bowler looking for 100% or whatever for handicap. 

 

1.  How many have brought this up to the league for consideration? 

2.  If you have, how many have had it pass? 

3.  If it passed, how many bowlers walked out?

 

If you think your idea of leveling the playing field is the best option for all bowlers, then suggest it when it matters and see what happens. 


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