Author Topic: How do you find the VAL? (Read 2350 times)

Nicanor · « **on:** February 03, 2011, 10:52:37 PM »

Trying to figure out where/how the VAL is located. I'm trying to learn the dual angle layout method.

Thanks,

Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)

cheech · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2011, 07:07:57 AM »

im still learning this too but you find it by measuring the VAL angle and marking it. you connect that mark and your PAP with a line. that is your VAL. then you measure the vertical part of the PAP and measure 90* from the VAL and that is the horizontal grip line (centerline? i always get them confused) measure the horizontal part of the part and you are back at grip center.

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qstick777 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2011, 08:18:21 AM »

You can get some great info and help on the dual angle method from

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/index.php

But in basic terms, you need to know your PAP before you find your VAL.

Several different ways to find your PAP -

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Measure_Bowlers_Positive_Axis_Point

Then basically you draw a perpendicular line from your midline (horizontal line through your grip center) through your PAP - that line is your VAL.

Edited by qstick777 on 2/4/2011 at 9:19 AM

HamPster · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2011, 11:24:51 AM »

To make it a little easier to understand, you basically end up with capital "H" on the ball (though with the ball being round, it doesn't look like it.

To flatten it out, you have your grip centerline, then you have the line at a 90 degree angle that goes from your grip midline out to your axis point (either up or down from there of course depending on where your axis is) and then in essence make a line through your axis point that is parallel with your grip centerline. So if you look at a capital H, the left vertical line would be your grip centerline, the horizontal line connecting the vertical lines would be your grip midline to your axis point, and the right vertical line would be your vertical axis line, or VAL. Mirror that of course for lefties. Hope that helps, maybe I'll set something up at the shop when I get there in a couple hours and take a picture to post.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Bahshay · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2011, 11:34:55 AM »

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding:

If your PAP is (for example) 5 over and 1 up, your VAL is the line up.

Sikfish · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2011, 12:02:28 PM »

Your VAL is the line that passes through your axis point (PAP) perpindicular to you grip midline. In the diagram below you can see the "H" that is mentioned in the above statement.

o.o .

. .

(cg) x................x(PAP)

. .

o . (the vertical "dotted" line would be your VAL through your PAP)

HamPster · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2011, 01:02:36 PM »

Correct . . in a way, you just need to extend that line further up and through your axis, and further down. You could wrap the line clear around the ball if you wanted, but it's not necessary.

Bahshay wrote on 2/4/2011 12:34 PM:
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding:

If your PAP is (for example) 5 over and 1 up, your VAL is the line up.

And yes, lol, I tried to draw it, or put something together but nothing was looking right, that's what I was trying to explain.

Sikfish wrote on 2/4/2011 1:02 PM:
Your VAL is the line that passes through your axis point (PAP) perpindicular to you grip midline. In the diagram below you can see the "H" that is mentioned in the above statement.

    o.o               .

        .                 .

        .                 .

(cg) x................x(PAP)

        .                 .

      .                 .

       o     . (the vertical "dotted" line would be your VAL through your PAP)

That's just like, your opinion, man.

raiderh20boy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2011, 02:10:12 PM »

msg sent!!!!!!!!

Use "IT" and BOWL UP A STORM!!

Nicanor · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2011, 07:26:02 AM »

Thank you for all the feedback. I understand it much better now.

Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)

Edited by Nicanor on 2/5/2011 at 8:26 AM

jls · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2011, 07:48:51 AM »

Your PAP is located on your VAL...Since we hear 24/7 on this site, that so many of you feel the importance of knowing your PAP, or else "run to another pro shop" There really should be no problem with knowing where your VAL is....

This isn't rocket science...

Oh and BTW, Now with most ball companies, they require that their balls be drilled in a certain way...Or VOID the warranty...

They DO NOT want the pin drilled within 1" of any finger hole...

Now this may come as a SHOCK to some of you.... But if a ball driller is laying out your ball according to your Track co ordance, { Your PAP } and by doing this the pin ends up 1/4 of and inch near one of your holes...If said ball driller goes ahead and drills said ball, it will be out of warranty...................

If any of you ever bother to read the drill sheet from Roto Grip, you would see that they address this issue...

TheY say, MOVE IT.... OMG, Move IT.... Why that will change your PAP.... OMG,,, Will the ball still roll...

So in this case, your pin to the PAP may be moved by 3/4"

The point..... you can have your ball drilled EXACTLY and maybe VOID the warranty of your new $200 ball... Or the ball driller will move it and comply with the companies drilling requirements... and your Pin to the PAP will not be exact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't have it both ways....

The Point....

Stop worrying about it and learn how to HIT a Mark without the help of and Indian scout............

jls

Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 11:08 AM

Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 2:04 PM

JohnP · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2011, 09:01:19 AM »

True, if the pin is close to a gripping hole a change needs to be made, but it doesn't change the PAP location, it changes the pin to PAP distance and the two angles. The PAP location is a function of the customer's release. If the pin is very close to a hole, generally the driller will make the change so the pin is completely drilled out instead of moving it to >1" away from the hole, then there's no possibility of cracking from the pin to the hole. This move also satisfies the warranty requirements. -- JohnP

qstick777 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2011, 11:17:28 AM »

I thought it was always 1"? Has been that way since I've been bowling, although I've never seen it actually enforced.
If they are going to make it a big deal now, they will need to either start making pins longer than 4", or maybe the insert companies will go out of business.
For any body with a span of longer than 4" and using inserts, the 1" requirement will make it virtually impossible to have a pin over finger layout.
Inserts are 31/32", so that is basically 1". Then you'll have to move the pin to 1" higher than that hole, so basically you are at 2" to the bottom of the finger hole. Placing the CG close to grip center (to avoid any issues with statics and legality).
This requirement might cause a boatload of problems for the hole pounders of the world - both those that drill in their basement (or garage), or those that actually have a sign on their shop that implies that they know what they are doing!
Pin to the right of finger and CG in the palm, or CG kicked out and a "hook" hole. PAP? Don't need it. Don't know what it is and don't need to know. Dual angle? What is this, high school geometry class? Punch 3 holes, give me your $60 and be on your way. Made the thumb hole too big? Here, have some tape for free, now go away.
Ball isn't hooking? You must be doing something wrong. Hooking too much? I told you that ball was too aggressive for those lane conditions.
Of course maybe I'm the only guy that's ever been to one of "those" pro shops?

jls wrote on 2/5/2011 8:48Oh and BTW, Now with most ball companies, they require that their balls be drilled in a certain way...Or VOID the warranty...

They DO NOT want the pin drilled within 1" of any finger hole...

Now this may come as a SHOCK to some of you.... But if a ball driller is laying out your ball according to your Track co ordance, { Your PAP } and by doing this the pin ends up 1/4 of and inch near one of your holes...If said ball driller goes ahead and drills said ball, it will be out of warranty...................

If any of you ever bother to read the drill sheet from Roto Grip, you would see that they address this issue...

TheY say, MOVE IT.... OMG, Move IT.... Why that will change your PAP.... OMG,,, Will the ball still roll...

jls

Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 11:08 AM

jls · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:00:51 PM »

Exactly right sir...But the point I was making is how it looks to the customer when your laying out their ball...

If you use their T C and it ends up with the pin 1/4" from their RF, and you move it.... They want to know why...and they think that it changed their PAP .. It didn't change. The pin distance to the PAP was changed...

Many times while laying out a ball, this has to be done...

If we were doing a layout with the pin 4" to the PAP, and after using the bowlers TC, the pin ended up to close to the RF, then by moving it 1/2" or so, we end up with a Pin 3 1/2 to the PAP... That was the point I was trying to make...So if after drilling they had their PAP checked... It would be 3 1/2" to the pin instead of 4" to the pin like they thought it was being drilled using that layout that said, put the pin 4" to the PAP...

Now that ball drilled 3 1/2" to the PAP may roll earlier than a ball drilled 4" to the PAP...

As you said, their PAP didn't change... The distance from the PIN to their PAP changed .

But if you are using their TC, the span and their PAP is the same... But when you move a pin or drill one out to avoid hitting it, you are changing the pin distance to the PAP.. IMO

Now you are right, you could drill out the pin...But that sometimes leads to a problem...If the ball cracks and the pin has been drilled out, sometimes a customer feels the reason the ball cracked was that the pin was drilled out.. So that sometimes opens a can of worms...What I see most of the time is that the pin is not drilled out... The rf hits the pin...And that's not good...

I feel it is always best when dealing with house bowlers to avoid doing this... If your drilling a ball for a tournament bowler, that a different story...

Qstick... The dist. now have a form letter from Ebonite stating that a ball drilled within 1" will void the warranty...

I believe they will give you a little tollerence of about 1/2"... As you said, maybe not enforced in the past, but that now may be changing...

JohnP wrote on 2/5/2011 10:01 AM:True, if the pin is close to a gripping hole a change needs to be made, but it doesn't change the PAP location, it changes the pin to PAP distance and the two angles. The PAP location is a function of the customer's release. If the pin is very close to a hole, generally the driller will make the change so the pin is completely drilled out instead of moving it to >1" away from the hole, then there's no possibility of cracking from the pin to the hole. This move also satisfies the warranty requirements. -- JohnP

jls

Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 2:22 PM

completebowler · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2011, 08:24:42 PM »

I second jls.....the companies have recently said that they are going to be much stricter about enforcing part of the warranty disclaimer. After all....it is on every box, why can't hole pounders read the box?

I could be wrong but I believe Mo Pinel has actually said to simply move the holes down if necessary to avoid being to close. I understand what jls is saying about everyone worrying about their pap and whether the layout is exactly what is proposed.

Can anyone tell me if they can notice the difference?

I drilled two balls last year for myself with the exact same angles. One had a 4" pin to pap and a P3 hole and one was 4-3/8" with a P3.

Guess what.....no difference.

ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI

JohnP · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2011, 08:55:00 AM »

I also agree with jls, just wanted to clarify his post about the PAP changing so non-drillers would understand what really happens. I took the Ebonite two day class on layouts and lane play about three years ago, it was taught by Jeff Ussery who is now the Hammer brand manager. He told us that Ebonite brands are using poured pins instead of pressed pins and that 1/2" was fine. That's what I've been going by and haven't had any cracked balls. I hadn't heard about the Ebonite letter to distributors, so I guess I'll have to change. Honestly, I get very few customers that even know they have a PAP until I tell them, so layouts are left up to me. If I feel strongly about a layout that brings a pin close to a hole I tell them it will void the warranty and let them decide, but most times I just modify the layout to either move the pin away from the hole or drill it out completely (again, if I decide to drill it out completely I discuss the decision with the customer and let him decide if that's OK). -- JohnP

Author Topic: How do you find the VAL? (Read 2350 times)

Nicanor

How do you find the VAL?

cheech

Re: How do you find the VAL?

qstick777

Re: How do you find the VAL?

HamPster

Re: How do you find the VAL?

Bahshay

Re: How do you find the VAL?

Sikfish

Re: How do you find the VAL?

HamPster

Re: How do you find the VAL?

raiderh20boy

Re: How do you find the VAL?

Nicanor

Re: How do you find the VAL?

jls

Re: How do you find the VAL?

JohnP

Re: How do you find the VAL?

qstick777

Re: How do you find the VAL?

jls

Re: How do you find the VAL?

completebowler

Re: How do you find the VAL?

JohnP

Re: How do you find the VAL?