Post by: Nicanor on February 03, 2011, 10:52:37 PM
Trying to figure out where/how the VAL is located. I'm trying to learn the dual angle layout method.
Thanks,
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: cheech on February 04, 2011, 07:07:57 AM
sacred heart university bowling, jr.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
everyone is born right handed, only the gifted overcome it
Post by: qstick777 on February 04, 2011, 08:18:21 AM
But in basic terms, you need to know your PAP before you find your VAL.
Several different ways to find your PAP -
Then basically you draw a perpendicular line from your midline (horizontal line through your grip center) through your PAP - that line is your VAL.
Edited by qstick777 on 2/4/2011 at 9:19 AM
Post by: HamPster on February 04, 2011, 11:24:51 AM
To make it a little easier to understand, you basically end up with capital "H" on the ball (though with the ball being round, it doesn't look like it.
To flatten it out, you have your grip centerline, then you have the line at a 90 degree angle that goes from your grip midline out to your axis point (either up or down from there of course depending on where your axis is) and then in essence make a line through your axis point that is parallel with your grip centerline. So if you look at a capital H, the left vertical line would be your grip centerline, the horizontal line connecting the vertical lines would be your grip midline to your axis point, and the right vertical line would be your vertical axis line, or VAL. Mirror that of course for lefties. Hope that helps, maybe I'll set something up at the shop when I get there in a couple hours and take a picture to post.
That's just like, your opinion, man.
Post by: Bahshay on February 04, 2011, 11:34:55 AM
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding:
If your PAP is (for example) 5 over and 1 up, your VAL is the line up.
Post by: Sikfish on February 04, 2011, 12:02:28 PM
Your VAL is the line that passes through your axis point (PAP) perpindicular to you grip midline. In the diagram below you can see the "H" that is mentioned in the above statement.
o.o .
. .
. .
(cg) x................x(PAP)
. .
. .
o . (the vertical "dotted" line would be your VAL through your PAP)
Post by: HamPster on February 04, 2011, 01:02:36 PM
Correct . . in a way, you just need to extend that line further up and through your axis, and further down. You could wrap the line clear around the ball if you wanted, but it's not necessary.
And yes, lol, I tried to draw it, or put something together but nothing was looking right, that's what I was trying to explain.
That's just like, your opinion, man.
Post by: raiderh20boy on February 04, 2011, 02:10:12 PM
msg sent!!!!!!!!
Use "IT" and BOWL UP A STORM!!
Post by: Nicanor on February 05, 2011, 07:26:02 AM
Thank you for all the feedback. I understand it much better now.
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Edited by Nicanor on 2/5/2011 at 8:26 AM
Post by: jls on February 05, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
Your PAP is located on your VAL...Since we hear 24/7 on this site, that so many of you feel the importance of knowing your PAP, or else "run to another pro shop" There really should be no problem with knowing where your VAL is....
This isn't rocket science...
Oh and BTW, Now with most ball companies, they require that their balls be drilled in a certain way...Or VOID the warranty...
They DO NOT want the pin drilled within 1" of any finger hole...
Now this may come as a SHOCK to some of you.... But if a ball driller is laying out your ball according to your Track co ordance, { Your PAP } and by doing this the pin ends up 1/4 of and inch near one of your holes...If said ball driller goes ahead and drills said ball, it will be out of warranty...................
If any of you ever bother to read the drill sheet from Roto Grip, you would see that they address this issue...
TheY say, MOVE IT.... OMG, Move IT.... Why that will change your PAP.... OMG,,, Will the ball still roll...
So in this case, your pin to the PAP may be moved by 3/4"
The point..... you can have your ball drilled EXACTLY and maybe VOID the warranty of your new $200 ball... Or the ball driller will move it and comply with the companies drilling requirements... and your Pin to the PAP will not be exact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can't have it both ways....
The Point....
Stop worrying about it and learn how to HIT a Mark without the help of and Indian scout............
jls
Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 11:08 AM
Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 2:04 PM
Post by: JohnP on February 05, 2011, 09:01:19 AM
True, if the pin is close to a gripping hole a change needs to be made, but it doesn't change the PAP location, it changes the pin to PAP distance and the two angles. The PAP location is a function of the customer's release. If the pin is very close to a hole, generally the driller will make the change so the pin is completely drilled out instead of moving it to >1" away from the hole, then there's no possibility of cracking from the pin to the hole. This move also satisfies the warranty requirements. -- JohnP
Post by: qstick777 on February 05, 2011, 11:17:28 AM
If they are going to make it a big deal now, they will need to either start making pins longer than 4", or maybe the insert companies will go out of business.
For any body with a span of longer than 4" and using inserts, the 1" requirement will make it virtually impossible to have a pin over finger layout.
Inserts are 31/32", so that is basically 1". Then you'll have to move the pin to 1" higher than that hole, so basically you are at 2" to the bottom of the finger hole. Placing the CG close to grip center (to avoid any issues with statics and legality).
This requirement might cause a boatload of problems for the hole pounders of the world - both those that drill in their basement (or garage), or those that actually have a sign on their shop that implies that they know what they are doing!
Pin to the right of finger and CG in the palm, or CG kicked out and a "hook" hole. PAP? Don't need it. Don't know what it is and don't need to know. Dual angle? What is this, high school geometry class? Punch 3 holes, give me your $60 and be on your way. Made the thumb hole too big? Here, have some tape for free, now go away.
Ball isn't hooking? You must be doing something wrong. Hooking too much? I told you that ball was too aggressive for those lane conditions.
Of course maybe I'm the only guy that's ever been to one of "those" pro shops?
Post by: jls on February 05, 2011, 01:00:51 PM
Exactly right sir...But the point I was making is how it looks to the customer when your laying out their ball...
If you use their T C and it ends up with the pin 1/4" from their RF, and you move it.... They want to know why...and they think that it changed their PAP .. It didn't change. The pin distance to the PAP was changed...
Many times while laying out a ball, this has to be done...
If we were doing a layout with the pin 4" to the PAP, and after using the bowlers TC, the pin ended up to close to the RF, then by moving it 1/2" or so, we end up with a Pin 3 1/2 to the PAP... That was the point I was trying to make...So if after drilling they had their PAP checked... It would be 3 1/2" to the pin instead of 4" to the pin like they thought it was being drilled using that layout that said, put the pin 4" to the PAP...
Now that ball drilled 3 1/2" to the PAP may roll earlier than a ball drilled 4" to the PAP...
As you said, their PAP didn't change... The distance from the PIN to their PAP changed .
But if you are using their TC, the span and their PAP is the same... But when you move a pin or drill one out to avoid hitting it, you are changing the pin distance to the PAP.. IMO
Now you are right, you could drill out the pin...But that sometimes leads to a problem...If the ball cracks and the pin has been drilled out, sometimes a customer feels the reason the ball cracked was that the pin was drilled out.. So that sometimes opens a can of worms...What I see most of the time is that the pin is not drilled out... The rf hits the pin...And that's not good...
I feel it is always best when dealing with house bowlers to avoid doing this... If your drilling a ball for a tournament bowler, that a different story...
Qstick... The dist. now have a form letter from Ebonite stating that a ball drilled within 1" will void the warranty...
I believe they will give you a little tollerence of about 1/2"... As you said, maybe not enforced in the past, but that now may be changing...
jls
Edited by jls on 2/5/2011 at 2:22 PM
Post by: completebowler on February 05, 2011, 08:24:42 PM
I could be wrong but I believe Mo Pinel has actually said to simply move the holes down if necessary to avoid being to close. I understand what jls is saying about everyone worrying about their pap and whether the layout is exactly what is proposed.
Can anyone tell me if they can notice the difference?
I drilled two balls last year for myself with the exact same angles. One had a 4" pin to pap and a P3 hole and one was 4-3/8" with a P3.
Guess what.....no difference.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: JohnP on February 07, 2011, 08:55:00 AM
I also agree with jls, just wanted to clarify his post about the PAP changing so non-drillers would understand what really happens. I took the Ebonite two day class on layouts and lane play about three years ago, it was taught by Jeff Ussery who is now the Hammer brand manager. He told us that Ebonite brands are using poured pins instead of pressed pins and that 1/2" was fine. That's what I've been going by and haven't had any cracked balls. I hadn't heard about the Ebonite letter to distributors, so I guess I'll have to change. Honestly, I get very few customers that even know they have a PAP until I tell them, so layouts are left up to me. If I feel strongly about a layout that brings a pin close to a hole I tell them it will void the warranty and let them decide, but most times I just modify the layout to either move the pin away from the hole or drill it out completely (again, if I decide to drill it out completely I discuss the decision with the customer and let him decide if that's OK). -- JohnP
Post by: jls on February 07, 2011, 11:55:06 AM
John, maybe in that post I didn't word very clearly......As you said, the person's PAP does not change...But if we move their span by 3/4 of an inch away from the pin...Then their PAP is no longer on the original VAL...And that it what I meant by the PAP moved...
And what started out as a 4" pin to the PAP is now a 3 1/4" pin to the PAP...
Now as for the warranty issue...Recently I had a cracked Mission 2.0... When I sent in my request to the Dist. for a RA #, I received an email with a letter from Ebonite stating that the ball is under warranty as long as the pin is at least 1" away from any hole... And I believe it did say something about a 1/2 being ok...But they would prefer when laying the ball out to keep it 1" away...
Now the point to all of this...
If a customer believes he was given a drilling with the pin 5" to his PAP, only to be told six weeks later by another pro shop { after he left a ten pin } that it was only 4 1/4" away, He might be upset with the shop that drilled the ball... Since he was lead to believe that the pin was 5" away from his PAP...
And since we all have read post on this site saying,,,, If your pro shop does not find your PAP, run don't walk to another pro shop.... And since we all know that a customer will be big time upset if their ball cracks and is not warrantied due to the fact that the pin was placed too close to a drilled hole...
You can't have it both ways............And as some other pro shops have posted, most ball companies say... MOVE IT, { the PIN } it won't matter.... Yet these are the same ball companies that have convinced the consumer that your ball must be drilled EXACTLY to your PAP, or it will not roll right and it will self destruct upon impacting the pins...
So pro shops basically have to make a choice, drill it according to the customer's PAP and possibly risk voiding a warranty, or move the pin, thus changing a desired layout slightly...And risk having another pro shop say, "your ball was not drilled according to your PAP, It's 3/4" off".
Like Complete said, sometimes can't tell the difference....
jls