Author Topic: How should this be handled (Read 7326 times)

carlos · « **on:** April 04, 2010, 02:37:42 AM »

I have a situation in the league that I bowl in. I was a sub on the team ( I will be bowler C ) in which bowler B quit. Bowler B quit because he said he was going to have knee surgery. I sub for 4 weeks in which bowler A ( the captain) paid for bowler B. Bowler B said he would pay the captain for the four weeks and he was just leaving the team and was not interested in the prize fund. The captain asked me ( Bowler C ) if I would like to take his place take over the weekly payments and get his prize money at the end of the season minus the 4 weeks that he owed her. Sounded like a good deal and I took it. Bowler B also bowls in another league that he did not quit and still bowls every week. We bowled as a team last Wend. and one of our main bowlers did not make it and Bowler B just happened to be in the area with his bowling ball and took his spot for the night. I hear the captain talking about how many weeks did I bowled versus how many he bowled. The captain was talking about me and bowler B taking half the prize fund because he showed up and helped us win some games. I told the captian that was not what we agreed on when I became a full time member. The captain told me it was moral issue since he paid almost half the year and he helped us win a couple of weeks. Am I out of line wanting all the prize fund money ? It's a good chance that we may come in first place worst case second. I would still feel the same way about the prize fund money if we came in last place. Are there any rules on this matter ? If you were in this situation what would you do ? Bowler B said he is putting off knee surgery for now and will pay the captain for the 4 weeks. We are going to have a team meeting on this on the next time we bowl. Thanks for suggestions. Carlos

qstick777 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:08:16 PM »

Here's how it works in my league:

quote:

Each team captain shall be responsible for the team's bowling fees of $100.00 each night, regardless of whether the team has a full roster unless the bowling center is not charging the league for vacant positions.

Fees will be paid in full on the night that the games are bowled. Team members who bowl that fail to pay the full weekly fees may have their team games subject to forfeiture. Arrearages of one week may be allowed, but only with approval from president, or highest presiding league officer.
Any team with a member more than one week in arrears must use an absent score for that member. If a team uses any bowler (rostered team member or floating substitute) for any member more than one week in arrears, their games will
be forfeited.
Any league member who is more than three weeks in arrears will be sent a certified letter, in accordance with USBC Rule 115b, to appear before the Board of Directors to answer charges of non-payment of league fees.
Arrearages incurred by any team member will be taken out of that teamâ€™s standings and prize money, and any individual award prize money for which that member may be eligible, in order to balance the league treasury.

When a team or individual withdraws from a league without a satisfactory reason or is expelled for sufficient cause, they forfeit their prize and any other moneys for which they may have been eligible. The team or individual is also subject to suspension from membership through the local associations. Bowlers must give two weeks written notice to both the President and Secretary and pay for those two weeks.

Notice it doesn't address withdrawl due to a satisfactory reason.

Personally I don't think you are entitled to any prize money other than for the weeks that that you bowled, paid, and were an actual rostered team member - weeks in which you subbed do not count.

I believe the league will pay out per roster spot. If an official team is 5 members and the prize is $1000, there will be 5 $200 payouts. If your team has 7 rotating members and has worked out some sort of agreement, that is up to the team (the captain) to decide how that money is split.

Look at it this way - the guy wanted out because he thought he was having surgery. The captain, because they are responsible for the total team payment, has a couple of options:

- call a league meeting letting them know you have a bowler going out for medical reasons. Request the league to allow the team to use a vacant score and "forgive" the bowler's remaining league due responsibility.

- call a league meeting and let them know the bowler has abandoned the team and they will be using the vacant score. The league prizefund will be short due to the bowler leaving.

- bowl the member blind and continue to pay his dues. Take his fees out of his prize fund.

- find somebody else to take his place. Work out the arrangements for payment and prize fund pay out with the new guy.

If the captain promised you something else, that is between the 2 of you.

Robadat · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:19:32 PM »

quote:
Always had a copy of the USBC/ABC rule book around .. can't find it now .. anything in the RULE BOOK on this???
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J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

quote:
114a/4
If a team member resigns or is replaced during the season, are they entitled to share the teamâ€™s prize money?

Regardless of how long bowlers compete with a team, they qualify for a prorated share of the teamâ€™s prize money provided they resigned in accordance with Rule 114a or were replaced by the team captain.

Rule 104a, Item 7, requires the team captain to pay each member of the team within 15 days after receiving prize money in accordance with any verbal or written agreements. USBC holds that prize distribution among team members is a team matter. When a member has bowled part of the season and is unable to be a member at the end of the schedule, it is common practice for teams to prorate prize money between the member who resigned and the replacement based on the number of games each bowled and paid for during the season.

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Disclaimer provided by Jorge, Thanks.

carlos · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:54:32 PM »

Robadat thanks for posting what the rules state. Qstick777 I guess I view it as someone or some organization changing the terms of an agreement when your at the end. On a side note. If the guy missed 3/4 of the season and had me come in and sub and the captain told me not to worry about paying. Then at the end of the season tell me that I have to pay, that would not be right.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:01:12 PM »

Where I come from, crapping on your team and ditching them without paying for your missed weeks and finding your own replacement meant you didn't get **** from the prize fund. Usually, the new bowler would get a pro-rated portion for the games he bowled, and the rest of the team would divide up the AWOL bowler's portion of winnings after any dues that bowler owed were paid. It was considered compensation for putting up with the headaches the missing bowler caused.

So he got hurt - that isn't the issue. The issue is he bailed and left the team hanging. He deserves nothing, IMO, and if I were on that team, I would not let him flip-flop his way back now - he's already proven to be unreliable. For instance, he conveniently wants back in now there's a chance they could win the league. I bet if they start dropping in the next few weeks, his knee will be too bad to bowl again.

As for Carlos, well he was promised what he was promised as a stipulation for him finishing out the league. Is it Carlos' fault the Captain made him such a sweet offer? No. It's the Captain's fault, and should be held accountable for promises made. Do I think Carlos was being a bit opportunistic as well? Sure I do, but if a team Captain approached me and offered the same deal I would jump on it too if I had the time/money to finish out the league and liked the people. Plus, I would expect them to stick to their word and pay up as promised and agreed upon. Especially since the Captain approached and offered it without Carlos asking for it. I mean, they expect Carlos to come in every week, keep his dues current, and bowl out the rest of the year. If he upholds his end of the bargain, the team captain should too.

Just MO.

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9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

trash heap · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:19:57 PM »

quote:
As for Carlos, well he was promised what he was promised as a stipulation for him finishing out the league. Is it Carlos' fault the Captain made him such a sweet offer? No. It's the Captain's fault, and should be held accountable for promises made. Do I think Carlos was being a bit opportunistic as well? Sure I do, but if a team Captain approached me and offered the same deal I would jump on it too if I had the time/money to finish out the league and liked the people. Plus, I would expect them to stick to their word and pay up as promised and agreed upon. Especially since the Captain approached and offered it without Carlos asking for it. I mean, they expect Carlos to come in every week, keep his dues current, and bowl out the rest of the year. If he upholds his end of the bargain, the team captain should too.

This right on. You hold true to your word. The captain made the offer.

quote:
Bowler B said he would pay the captain for the four weeks and he was just leaving the team and was not interested in the prize fund. The captain asked me ( Bowler C ) if I would like to take his place take over the weekly payments and get his prize money at the end of the season minus the 4 weeks that he owed her.

Remember...carlos was approached. You don't just change things around. If anything the captain should split his winnings with bowler B and carlos get full winnings minus the 4 weeks.

Its funny how the captain states "moral issue"...what a joke. He is the one who makes the deal and then backs out.

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Always the last one to POST!

Monster Pike · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:29:13 PM »

Carlos should only get prize fund for the weeks he bowled. The Captain should get his money back out of what bowler B's prize fund in refund for his extra money's paid from for Bowler B's absence before Carlos started bowling. The rest of the team, including the Captain gets their fair share for what they put in & Bowler B gets what's left of his share because he was hurt. If Bowler B wasn't really hurt & left the team in a lurch, then his share of prize money could be divided up equally, not just given to Carlos flat out.... Why should he get all of that money?

But at the end you say bowler B came back to the team....?? Well then bowler B should be entitled to all prize money minus the money owed to the captain for the weeks captain had to pay for his azz... Carlos & the rest of the team get prize money prorated for the weeks they put into it....

I don't see the problem with either of those scenarios.

M.P.

Jorge300 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:20:50 PM »

I think there are two issues here...connected but totally separate.

The correct way to handle this situation is as some of you have mentioned. Each bowler (Bowler B and Carlos) get a portion of 1 share of the prize fund prorated around how many weeks they bowled. If Bowler B still owes money, it should then be deducted from his prorated share, not before the split. And if his share isn't enough to cover the missing weeks, then he should pay the captain whatever it takes to make things square.

The other issue is what Carlos was told. There are such things as verbal contracts. You make a financial arrangment verbally, it has stood up in a court of law if there are witnesses that can vouch for the agreement being made. Carlos, agreed to finish the year based on the fact that he was told he would get 100% of the prize fund. And regardless of what some of you think, he is not being greedy, or a weasel, or anything other then following the verbal contract he was given. As the rules state, distrubtuion of funds within a team are a team's decision, not the USBC. For example, I have subbed for a team for the last 2-3 years, last season, people wound up missing a lot of weeks between the 5 members and I bowled about 1/2 the season. I did not pay any of the weeks I bowled, and expected to get $0 in return. But they took it upon themselves to give me a share of their prize fund. I was greatful, but it was totally unexpected. They didn't have to do that, they decided to. Just like the captain didn't have to promise 100% of the prize fund to Carlos, he just decided to, probably as an incentive to get him to say yes so they wouldn't be stuck with a blind or have to try to find a new sub every week.

So there are the issues, what is the right thing to do vs. the verbal contract the captain made with Carlos. Separate but intertwined issues. Personally Carlos, unless this is some big money league, split the share with Bowler B and realize that you will never ever sub or help out this team again, and move on. Not worth the hassles, even though I think you are correct in your position. The only way to assure it would happen would be to sue the captain for breach of contract if he doesn't follow through, but unless other heard it and are willing to testify to it, your case would be very weak.
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Jorge300

ccrider · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:41:08 PM »

Back in the day, a man's word was his bond. Now, as is reflected by many of the post above, the captain's word don't mean dodosquat.

The captain had apparent authority to enter into the oral agreement that was made. Hence, it would likely be enforceable in court.

But, the real question is, why should it take so much to get the person to hon their word.

I am sure that the remaining team members were at least aware of the agreement, and received a benefit from the new bowler coming in.

Word to the wise, get it in writing. People don't value their word like they use to.

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kidlost2000 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »

Long story short there are no rules for it. The captain told you one thing and now changed his mind. It is a small civil issue with nothing in writing.

Your choices are to speak up at the meeting and say I was promised this and not the captain is changing his story, or just see how everything goes and finish the season with whatever you get. Or you could step away from the team.

It sucks and happens often. I'm going through the same thing right now minus the other bowler being back. I'm sure when pay out comes he will show up and then we will see what happens.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "

bltbyj · « **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:55:01 PM »

How many weeks were you a full paying team member and not a sub?

trash heap · « **Reply #26 on:** April 05, 2010, 04:55:57 PM »

quote:
Word to the wise, get it in writing. People don't value their word like they use to.

So true.
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Always the last one to POST!

carlos · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2010, 05:22:25 PM »

I sub four to six times before the guy quit. I agreed to the offer from the captain in early Jan. I will stand my ground on this when we get together this week. In the future I will get something like this in writing. I never thought something like this would happen. I guess if it sounds to go to be true beware.

charlest · « **Reply #28 on:** April 05, 2010, 06:39:15 PM »

quote:
I sub four to six times before the guy quit. I agreed to the offer from the captain in early Jan. I will stand my ground on this when we get together this week. In the future I will get something like this in writing. I never thought something like this would happen. I guess if it sounds to go to be true beware.

Sorry, but yes.
The captain's word should be his bond, as the saying goes.

That said, I understand the situation. I have been in a similar situation. The captain kept his word and I got a bonus because we, as a team did so well.

The final financial situation is normal. The particpants, sub becoming regular and former regular, get the percentage of what they paid for.

Given that the captain is now going back on his word, I would never again trust him for anything, as far as I can spit.

Divorce yourself from all them as soon as possible. Heck, I'd not only leave that league, I'd also leave that house.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

nextbowler · « **Reply #29 on:** April 05, 2010, 10:58:48 PM »

The captain has every right to make any deal he wants to make. The captain paid for the last 4 weeks of Bowler B. Bowler B, if he wants any money, needs
to pay the captain back. You took someones' place with a verbal agreement.
That agreement needs to be honored.

rvmark · « **Reply #30 on:** April 06, 2010, 09:13:26 AM »

Carlos,

Regardless of everything that was said, I myself would not expect any money except for the weeks that I personally paid for myself. I am on the other end of the equation as I got an infected disc in my back which knocked me out for the rest of the season. I found someone to cover for me for the final 6 weeks of league and believe me I would rather be bowling. I am not worried about the money part of it but know that my team will split everything as we have every year by the number of games bowled and paid for by each individual, we even split with the people we have who sub for us. If the guy has a bad knee and is to have surgery he might be able to get by bowling once a week but will struggle with the pain when trying to bowl on back to back nights.

The real question are you really that hyped on this that you would want more than your share (based off of the weeks you paid for) if this is the only reason that you said you would bowl then I guess that says it all. I am not judging just stating how I look at.

Mark

Author Topic: How should this be handled (Read 7326 times)

carlos

How should this be handled

qstick777

Re: How should this be handled

Robadat

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carlos

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9andaWiggle

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trash heap

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Monster Pike

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Jorge300

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ccrider

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kidlost2000

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bltbyj

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trash heap

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carlos

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charlest

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nextbowler

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rvmark

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