Author Topic: How should this be handled? (Read 3390 times)

Rodney_L · « **on:** May 04, 2011, 03:35:08 PM »

Two teams having a roll off tonight which was 3 games total pins. The winning team wins by 4 pins. In the 8th frame of the last game 1 of the guys on the winning teams throws a gutter ball. After the pinsetter cycles they notice it gave him a 1 count and they look at the rack and notice the 8 pin is missing so they say that he didn't have a full rack and let him rebowl the frame. He gets 9/ on the rebowl of the frame. Had he taken the gutter ball and then gotten the 9 on the second ball it would have made and 11 pin difference in his score and instead of winning by 4 pins they lose by 7 pins. I wasn't involved in it but i would say if it wasn't noticed til after the pinsetter cycled that it should be counted as a gutter ball and he should have gotten a full set of pins and thrown his second shot. Which would you say?

Juggernaut · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:22:18 AM »

This is a cut&paste from the USBC rulebook:

Rule 8 - Deadball

When a dead ball is called, the delivery does not count and the correct pins must be respotted. The player is allowed to rebowl that delivery.

A ball shall be declared dead if any of the following occur:

After a delivery, attention is immediately called to the fact that one or more pins were missing from the setup.

It would be MY assertion that, if it was only noticed AFTER the pins were reset for the second shot, and only because of the automatic scorer providing a score of 1, that the attention WAS NOT immediate and that he should've gotten 0 for that shot, but had the pins correct for his SECOND (spare) attempt.

Because of his lack of attention, and that of his team mates, the missing pin wasn't called in time, and the bowler in question should've been given the score of 09 for that frame instead of 9/.

Rodney_L · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2011, 01:49:37 AM »

Thanks, that was the rule i was basing my decision on also. To me the immediate attention would be if you noticed it after release before the ball makes it to the pins not after the machine has cycled. There was a protest filed and the league is gonna meet on it next week and decide what to do.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2011, 06:02:02 AM »

Rodney_L wrote on 5/5/2011 1:49 AM:Thanks, that was the rule i was basing my decision on also. To me the immediate attention would be if you noticed it after release before the ball makes it to the pins not after the machine has cycled. There was a protest filed and the league is gonna meet on it next week and decide what to do.

Then you may also be interrested in the fact that rule 7 clearly states that it is the responsibility of the bowler in question to verify the proper pin placement prior to delivering the ball. Here is the cut&paste for rule 7:

7a. Improperly Set

It is each player’s responsibility to determine if a setup is correct. The player shall insist that any pin(s) incorrectly set be respotted before delivering the ball, otherwise the setup is deemed to be acceptable.

When bowling at a full setup or to make a spare, if it is discovered immediately after the delivery that one or more pins are set improperly, but not missing, the delivery and resulting pinfall count.

No change can be made in the position of any pin(s) left standing after the bowler’s first delivery, unless:

The pinsetter moved or misplaced any pin(s), or

Any standing pin(s) is (are) outside the range of the sweep bar.

Any such pin(s) will be respotted where it (they) originally stood before the delivery.

Being that the individual bowler is held liable for checking pin placement, and the fact that notification WAS NOT immediate, I think the protest is valid and has merit.

_______________________________________________________________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
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ccrider · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2011, 06:22:47 AM »

Can't have it both ways. If after the second ball there are no pins standing, he should get a spare.

Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.

Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2011, 06:22:55 AM »

I'll take the other side.

Since the electronic scorekeeper noticed the missing pin and the pin was missing from the middle of the rack so that the gutter ball could not have caused it to fall I feel the evidence says that the pin was missing from the full rack on the first delivery.

Because this was noticed before the next ball was thrown I believe it was a dead ball and should be shot over.

Just an unfortunate situation that a gutter ball was thrown on the first shot.

Rodney_L · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:41:08 AM »

This was one of the arguments of the team that rebowled the frame and they also said that the other team agreed to it and only went back on it after they ended up losing by 4 pins. If they agreed that the pin was missing at the time then i would say that it's over at that point but they say that they didn't agree to it. It's gonna be an interesting debate i'm sure.

Pinbuster wrote on 5/5/2011 6:22 AM:I'll take the other side.

Since the electronic scorekeeper noticed the missing pin and the pin was missing from the middle of the rack so that the gutter ball could not have caused it to fall I feel the evidence says that the pin was missing from the full rack on the first delivery.

Because this was noticed before the next ball was thrown I believe it was a dead ball and should be shot over.

Just an unfortunate situation that a gutter ball was thrown on the first shot.

JohnP · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:42:32 AM »

Your league officials should submit this to USBC for a ruling. Whichever team the league decides against is going to protest it anyway, so why waste time and possibly cause hard feelings in a meeting arguing about it? -- JohnP

Author Topic: How should this be handled? (Read 3390 times)

Rodney_L

How should this be handled?

Juggernaut

Re: How should this be handled?

Rule 8 - Deadball

Rodney_L

Re: How should this be handled?

Juggernaut

Re: How should this be handled?

7a. Improperly Set

ccrider

Re: How should this be handled?

Pinbuster

Re: How should this be handled?

Rodney_L

Re: How should this be handled?

JohnP

Re: How should this be handled?