BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: SneakyAsianMan on January 24, 2016, 01:00:36 PM
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I'm moving to a new league and they start in two weeks. I'm really good friends with their league president. How could I convince the league to bowl on a sports pattern? I really want to improve my game by bowling on more demanding conditions but I'm afraid other bowlers will not enjoy bowling on them as much as there scores wot be as high. Please help, this could potentially be a great opportunity for me.
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I wish you luck, but I don't think it will happen. Most bowlers are in love with their high scoring conditions and don't really care about bowling on challenging conditions to improve their skills.
Of course, you won't be sure until you try, so make up a list of all the good points about bowling on sports patterns and present it to the league during the league meeting (there usually is one prior to the first week of league) and hope there is enough interest to bring it to a vote. It might help to poll some of the league bowlers or team captains prior to the meeting and see what their feelings and objections would be to see if you can answer their concerns and gain some initial support going into the meeting. If you can't gain any support before the meeting, then you can make a decision on whether you really want to bring it up for a vote.
Again, good luck.
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Other than trying to make a sport league, you might want to talk with your bowling center manager and see if he is willing to put out some sport patterns for you and other bowlers to bowl on during open bowling times. Some managers are willing to do this. Not the same as bowling in a league against competition, but it is a start.
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good luck with that one
i would start with maybe a modified pattern as a suggestion
maybe you can try talking them into the state pattern or something a little tougher
but most bowlers want to just dump it out there and watch it walk into the pocket.
And until you change that mindset, none of them will want anything harder, that takes effort and time.
Most won't do that
I'm in a good challenge league and its 8 - 4 man teams for 32 weeks
1 of only a few around the Milwaukee area
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Use a shorter sport pattern. Bowlers will not complain if a hard pattern hooks alot. The majority of the complainers of "sport patterns" do not have a physical game that can generate a lot of recovery on a sport pattern. If they bowl bad and their ball doesn't hook, they're never coming back. If they bowl bad, but their ball still hooks a lot, they're still satisfying their own ego.
If you run a short cheetah-like pattern, the best players will still score a lot but be well above the players who can kill a house shot, but do not have the accuracy to score when they're tough. It will allow multiple styles to play, and the weaker players will get better bowling on a tougher pattern, but they will not quit because they get to see a big reaction out of their ball.
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I know all of the bowlers there and it isn't so much about their egos. They just would like to come in, bowl, and enjoy bowling. They understand that it's harder and requires more skill, but they wouldn't have as much fun. They don't get mad about the lower scoring conditions, however they just don't seem to enjoy it. I could tell them that it would help improve us, as some of us will represent our state in a small inter-state tournament. How could I make it 'enjoyable' at the same time as challenging?
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Why would an established league want to change to accomodate a brand new bowler
in the league? Why don't you just blend in?
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They're not very 'established' yet. Only have had one season, heading into their second. Also there's a good amount of bowlers there who are actually competitive and are willing to bowl on sports patterns. Just need to convince those who aren't that good to bowl on them.
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Once people start to understand that competitive bowling is a thing of the past for the sport in general, the better. As has been hashed and re-hashed on this site countless times, this is not the same sport from 40 years ago. In those days scores of bowlers participated in 2 or mores leagues a week as it was about the only thing to do during the winter months. Nowadays, people have too many choices for relaxation fun, to choose from. The game has over 50% less bowlers than in those days. From my experience bowling in both eras, today bowlers want their one or two nights bowling to be competitive, but also something they can enjoy and look forward to. That being said, the house shot is their choice. Most leagues have only a handful of bowlers who could score moderately well on tougher shots and who would like that challenge every week. The rest are comfortable with what they presently have. Despite what some say on here, the majority of those who carry high averages on a THS, know the reason for it. The ones who don't wouldn't get it no matter how you show them. Let's keep the game from deteriorating more than it already has and not try changing those who are happy with what they have. It's unfortunate but the guys who want to be challenged are stuck with that or it's left up to them to find a sport league.
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Rather than trying to change a league's pattern choice, why not, you try to find a league that is already on sports pattern. Just saying.
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Sport shot is hard to come by sometimes. Tried to get one started here and had 6 people show up. It's a losing battle in most places.
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Nice reply TDC57. Well stated.
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I don't think many would like to bowl on sport shots. But at the same time, too many THS are not helping the bowlers either. The ratios on some of the shots are way too much. I would guess my home center is in the 12-15:1 ratio.
I do feel something in the 8:1 ratio would help all bowlers be more consistent, but it will be like pulling teeth trying to get there without the help of the center.
A center's THS is usually what the loudest complainer wants and disregards the rest of the bowlers.
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I would like the idea of the rotating house shots of the Red, White and Blue patterns the USBC suggested a few years ago.
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As soon as 1 bowler starts threatening to leave over a "crappy" pattern
back it goes to house china
the proprietors cant afford to lose anyone for any reason
when 1 starts complaining, you get some more jump on the bandwagon
I had no challenge left in me after many years of house patterns
Went to the sport conditions and it was an eye opener for sure
im tickled to shoot 600 on some of these shots
tournament play has been alot better since the switch as well
several places around here run a sport league during the summer, you may look for that in your area
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Beating the dead horse Dave! Nobody argues your point, did you not read my post. But, this is a new era and every proprietor has the right to protect their business even though you turn your nose up to it. You are in the minuscule minority and all the chest beating in the world won't change the landscape of the bowling industry! Nobody disputes a person should get better being challenged, but the majority doesn't care about that or how sport pattern believers, feel. Unless you believe the game and industry would be better off if they lost another million bowlers, then either forget about THS and do what you have to, to be happy, but don't believe sport patterns are the life preserver of bowling.
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Unfortunately league hacks don't grasp that leading the league on tough lane condition and leading the league on a easy condition are exactly the same.
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Using the term "league hack" denotes that the person saying it, is a bowling snob. Don't be a bowling snob. Nobody likes a bowling snob!!
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Using the term "league hack" denotes that the person saying it, is a bowling snob. Don't be a bowling snob. Nobody likes a bowling snob!!
The only difference between league hack and bowling snob is a few logins to forums like these. I've been guilty of the latter, 10 years ago when I still cared.
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Going from house straight into sport is too big of a transition for most bowlers. They will complain and eventually quit. Your best chance is to gradually ween your league off of the walls and slowly introduce them into tougher shots. Here is what I did while in the process growing my league from 18 to 24 teams:
In 2013 we bowled on a 8-1 ratio house pattern where our 20th bowler was 205.
In 2014 we bowled on 2x 8-1's and 2x Kegel Challenge 4-1's. Our 20th bowler was 198.
Last season we bowled on 4x Kegel Challenge 4-1's and our 20th bowler was 193.
This season we are bowling on 3x Kegel Challenge 4-1's and 1x Sport Compliant. Our 20th bowler is currently at 190 with our 2nd easiest pattern coming up for Q4.
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Just stop trying to force everyone to bowl on a sport condition! Most have no interest and get used to that fact. It is up to those who want to bowl on tough conditions to find a league that has one or forget about it. Trying to convince those who want no part of it will only hurt the sport, not help it. If you want a sport that only a few thousand participate in, then in the words of REO Speedwagon, "keep pushin!"
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Don't take away the adult T-Ball bowling equivalent (House shot)! Too many egos will be bruised!
Very few people want to take the time to get better. They just want to drink beer, stand left, throw right, avg. 220+, go home and feel good about themselves.
I practice most Sundays, using a variety of balls, trying at least 3 different lines/zones and shoot games of lowball at corner pins.
I do know one guy that comes in that practices on PBA patterns they put down for him, as he shoots regional PBA 50s.
I am one of a handful in my area that would welcome a sport shot.
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First let me p[reface my comments by saying nobody enjoys bowling on flatter patterns more than me.
Having said that, let me ask a question. What would you do if you walked on to a golf course, and after paying your green fee the club pro said you had to play from the tips regardless of your skill level. If fact, many golf course do just the opposite, encouraging golfers to play from the tees that most match their skill level.
Ninety percent of all bowlers pay their money to have fun. Even a house shot presents enough of a challenge to their abilities. Even for the 200+ average group, the vast majority of them understand what they are bowling on and do not have inflated egos based on league average.
As I said nobody enjoys bowling on flatter patterns more than me. I think proprietors should give the small niche of competitive bowlers an opportunity to play or at least practice on tougher patterns. With the modern lane machines it is not that tough to set up a couple of pairs with various patterns while putting out a more conducive pattern for most of its leagues.
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What if you went to a golf course and couldn't play from the tips and the hole was as big as a garbage can lid?
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What if you went to a golf course and couldn't play from the tips and the hole was as big as a garbage can lid?
I'd play golf!!! Would it be easier to post a lower score? Of course.
Here's my opinion. You want to play tougher golf courses? They are available to most everyone. You may need to travel a bit.
Sport shot tournaments are the same. They are available, you may have to travel to find them.
Not everyone lives in San Diego and has Torrey Pines in their backyard, or can play pebble beach anytime they want. Some people can.
Not everyone lives somewhere where the owners of the center will put out sport shots. But I bet you can drive somewhere and find it if you want it bad enough.
But the key word is "you". If you want it, you can find it. But just like golf, some golfers never want to play Pebble Beach. They are fine at their local muni course with their buddies, drinking beer and shooting what they consider good numbers. You hear about them at work, or at the bar. "I shot 72 Sunday" Hey that's a good score, ever thought about playing professional? "LOL LOL LOL"
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Yes, tournaments are available but leagues other than summer novelties are not. For those of those who can not compete at the highest level in scratch tournaments, we are back to nada. I've done my fair share of donating in these events but there is nothing better than seeing tougher patterns week in and week out.
I think sport leagues also make bowling a competition again and not a video game with the cheat mode enabled. I used to bowl 2, 3 or 4 nights a week but when it is all on the China, I just don't see the point.
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What if you went to a golf course and couldn't play from the tips and the hole was as big as a garbage can lid?
I'd play golf!!! Would it be easier to post a lower score? Of course.
Here's my opinion. You want to play tougher golf courses? They are available to most everyone. You may need to travel a bit.
Sport shot tournaments are the same. They are available, you may have to travel to find them.
Not everyone lives in San Diego and has Torrey Pines in their backyard, or can play pebble beach anytime they want. Some people can.
Not everyone lives somewhere where the owners of the center will put out sport shots. But I bet you can drive somewhere and find it if you want it bad enough.
But the key word is "you". If you want it, you can find it. But just like golf, some golfers never want to play Pebble Beach. They are fine at their local muni course with their buddies, drinking beer and shooting what they consider good numbers. You hear about them at work, or at the bar. "I shot 72 Sunday" Hey that's a good score, ever thought about playing professional? "LOL LOL LOL"
There are over 15,000 golf courses in the US. There are around 4500 bowling centers. Some areas do not have the opportunity you state is available. If you consider traveling over two hours as convenient, then we will have to agree to disagree.
The problem with sport shots in general is the lack of support from bowlers. Bowlers in general don't want anything to do with them. Nothing can be done about it right now. Proprietors don't want them because the financial return isn't there.
I am a huge proponent of more difficult shots. I am not a proponent of sport shots as THS. My beef is with centers who don't have an idea of how to develop a THS for their leagues that benefits the majority and at the same time is competitive and challenging. It doesn't have to drive everyone away.
And when you say you'd play golf, I assume it is because the opportunity to play is there and you will score what you score. Why not feel the same way about bowling. Walk into league, regardless of the shot; bowl, have fun and score what you score.
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I bowl two leagues: One Sport and the other THS. I enjoy both for the obvious different reasons.
Living in both worlds, I'd suggest taking baby steps if you want to convert the THS league to something tougher. Going cold turkey from THS to the more challenging Sport/PBA patterns will alienate the majority of bowlers in the league. Most have not developed (nor care to develop) the skills necessary to have any success, any many will probably not come back next year.
If the THS league has multiple rounds, consider suggesting picking one or two rounds where minor tweaks are made to the THS pattern. It's relatively easy to lay down some additional oil from 10 to the gutter to create a little more out-of-bounds. It will give bowlers a taste of something tougher without completely destroying averages. If it's not well received, it's only for a round before going back to the normal THS.
We started this in out in our THS league last year, and it's basically worked out. There was some bitching and moaning during the first attempt because averages went down more than anticipated. But tweaks were made the next time the modified pattern was put down, and averages went up enough to keep the complainers under control.
This method will give the house a feel for how far they can go without possibly destroying the league and losing business. Something to consider.
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Even if we wanted to bowl on a sport pattern, the house has explained to us that they won't put one out for us, so it's a moot point. They say doing that properly would require striping the lanes multiple times both before and after league play to fully erase lane memory and there's not enough time available to do that. They currently do in-fill before league and nothing afterwards. They won't even clean the back ends before league. Fortunately I don't see it as being a big deal because the house shot is already difficult enough for 97% of us league bowlers (those of us who bowl less than a 700 series every night).
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Even if we wanted to bowl on a sport pattern, the house has explained to us that they won't put one out for us, so it's a moot point. They say doing that properly would require striping the lanes multiple times both before and after league play to fully erase lane memory and there's not enough time available to do that. They currently do in-fill before league and nothing afterwards. They won't even clean the back ends before league. Fortunately I don't see it as being a big deal because the house shot is already difficult enough for 97% of us league bowlers (those of us who bowl less than a 700 series every night).
this sounds like just a lip service excuse. I don't the center has to tape the lanes every week any more, at least I haven't noticed it this year when I am early to the center. It shouldn't be that hard for the center, if the center was willing. I would assume they have another reason, but don't want to share it.
My sport league is 2nd shift, 9 teams. so the center oils 6 pairs. the first pair is a burn pair/back up for break downs. they adequately strip and oil the lanes in 20-30 minutes between the leagues. My league members start to trickle in when the league in front of us in the 7th frame or so of their last game.
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Its not necessary to double strip to put up a more challenging shot than the THS. Also, something nobody mentions is that bowling in a sport league isn't going to do you much good unless you have the opportunity and commitment to practice on the tougher patterns. Most bowlers who don't have experience on flatter patterns are going to have to make changes to their game if they want to significantly improve. Single biggest thing that would help most bowlers is learning to go straighter. It doesn't mean throw less ball, just lowering the axis rotation, and getting comfortable more squared up.
The biggest thing about tournament patterns is the distance which can be much longer or much shorter than a house shot. Bowling on tournament patterns is more about becoming versatile than it is about making better shots. Versatility is the hardest thing to develop on a 40 foot house shot.
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The biggest thing about tournament patterns is the distance which can be much longer or much shorter than a house shot. Bowling on tournament patterns is more about becoming versatile than it is about making better shots. Versatility is the hardest thing to develop on a 40 foot house shot.
Perfectly stated. One of the main reasons that there are less bowlers every year competing in this sport.