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Author Topic: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!  (Read 1850 times)

LuckyLefty

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I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« on: July 24, 2006, 08:29:40 AM »
Contradictory?

Locking right after a long winded post...maybe a good way to get the last word in.

And I've been told that PS's were good for that.

Regarding Lane#1.  I think an important thing for bowlers to understand is that in most technique sports...great technique is learned under easier conditions.
It makes it easier to focus on the technique instead of the target!

If one starts bowling too early on sport conditions and other difficult patterns particularly before the technique is fully developed it leads to an impediment to achieving the best technique possible!

A very good friend of mine said it so well!

When I feel like I have 3 boards on which to strike...I get so loose I can hit 1!  When I feel that I only have one board to hit...I'm lucky to hit 3!".  He averaged 236 in a local league with a 10 year old pair of shoes and an 8 year old single ball arsenal!

Free swing versus tight swing!

One of the comments Richie Sposato also related during a recent presentation he gave was that there should be a reward for developing a powerful release.

OF course right after that he went out and tore up a sport shot that was trickin us ALL..until he showed us how to do it...combining his powerful release with plastic and a pin axis drilling to really WOW the whole crowd of mostly favorable sport shot proponents assembled!

REgards,

Luckylefty

This same thought I believe applies to the golf swing!

 


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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

Edited on 7/25/2006 9:49 AM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

 

bamaster

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2006, 05:16:32 PM »
quote:
in most technique sports...great technique is learned under easier conditions.


Just curious... where do you get this?
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Tony
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LuckyLefty

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2006, 05:39:45 PM »
where do I get these!  Do they have to be quotes?

They are Opinions!

In golf when I would put a ball on a ground before the golfer had developed weight shift...there was no way while focusing on the ball could he develop weight shift!

Raise the ball on a tee...the job was easier.  No ball...even easier.  Continue raising the bar on difficulty of ball contact until the technique would break...then we would go back to the easier step and focus on technique.

As far as targeting.  If we put a golfer set up with the wind coming from his back across his swing (or from left to right) and he was trying to learn to draw the ball we knew we could take twice as long.  So one goes to the end of the range and teaches it in 1/2 of the time of no wind.  A 4 times saving over having the wind in the wrong direction.

REgarding bowling.  I notice the same thing.  The pins are the first impediment to focusing on technique.  Then if the pins are there if the lane conditions are tricky and tough it is very hard to focus the mind on the technique of the execution.

I guess that is why at the Dick Ritger schools they start with rolling a ball to a partner and focusing on the feels of the swing.  I understand they then work backwards form the foul line.  With their one step swing drills etc.

All oriented toward developing technique while focusing on the technique!  Not the pins and carry.  When it breaks down I hear they go back to an earlier step!

I understand they are pretty successful!  

OH...I guess I sort of HEARD it one place.  

I remember it this way.  
Watcher says, "Nice strike...(to Dave Davis PBA hall of famer).  He says,
"Thanks....I didn't see it!, I'm working on throwing the ball close to my ankle".
He follows up with..."I've been doing this since 1957 for 40 5o 45 minutes at the beginning of every practice session"

From that I extrapolated that it was like golf.  There is technique practice and lane play practice!  Always be ready to go back to the bedrock of your technique practice if a tough lane condition....(or windy golf condition) wrecks your core technique.

REgards,

Luckylefty

--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

bamaster

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 08:16:16 PM »
What's with the rant?

Do there have to be quotes?  No.  You make a sweeping statement like that... which I completely disagree with... and all I did was ask for your reasoning.  Your reply doesn't support it, in my opinon.  The Ritger exercise is *void* of lane conditions, there's no benefit to having a wall or sport shot when learning to swing the ball.  As is your example with Dave Davis.  

Those are fundamental exercises that can be learned bowling on carpet.
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Tony
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J_Mac

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 09:28:40 PM »
*yawn*
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice."  Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

LuckyLefty

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2006, 10:35:41 AM »
I guess he was a hack!

I forgot to mention a couple of things.  He was 31 and had stopped bowling after a college career where I forget if He was #1 and Tommy Delutz was #2 or vice versa on their college team!

He said in fact...it's all mental!  There was no physical element at all to his relearning the game after a 10 year layoff and averaging 236.  I remember he started on a sport shot the first day...to get things in order!

I believe there is physical technique practice(in golf we made it easy, unless we wanted the player to make slow progress...then in those cases we put the ball down in a tough lie BEFORE they had good technique)., lane play practice, spare practice, high score mental practice, low score mental practice.
Some different practice techniques!

However for some reason we always like to start easy work to hard...break it...return one step to easier...try to break it...make it one step easier...and so on!  Building confidence in stages.  I call it 1 step backwards two forward.  I've actually never tried it and only made very moderate progress in my first year of bowling and never applied it to golf for myself or students.  Some males broke 80 in their first summer on the course and others broke 90 in their first round on the female side...but frankly we have no idea how.

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I like to watch kids learn.  Fascinating....how they do it on their own!  An example video driving games.  They start on driving level 1.  Fail...miserably.  Get better.  Go back.  Get better even better.  Go to driving level 2.  Breakdown.
Go back to level 1.  Go to level 2...better.  Get better at 2....skip to level 3 breakdown...back to level 2.  Amazing...and they do it on their own.  A series of confidence building steps in a logical order
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

SirAshley

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2006, 09:31:27 PM »
Lock this... Mushtare sucks...
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To be Politically Correct in this society I feel we should change the term "House Hack" to "One House Wonder". It will make alot of losers feel much better about themselves!!!

LuckyLefty

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2006, 09:41:43 PM »
Mushtare?  In this post?

YOU did that!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

302efi

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2006, 10:12:39 PM »
quote:
Lock this... Mushtare sucks...



ROFL!

L/L just admit he cheated, you'll feel better

...and no, Mustard does not have a "powerful" game, swing, release on anything else...
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Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...

LuckyLefty

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 11:21:10 AM »
I didn't introduce this here!

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

BackToBasics

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2006, 12:27:14 PM »
You learn good technigue under fair conditions and not neccessarily easier.  Conditions which you can garner appropriate and consistant feedback.  If the shot is on a reasonable surface, it doesn't have to be easy to learn feedback.  As long as you get consistant results from your execution. Easy shots mask that feedback.  Furthermore, you are able to correct mistakes earlier in the process before they become muscle memory.

And you can easily teach that person how to draw the ball into a left to right wind.  If the wind is coming hard off the left, and this person is a natural fader, a simple hold off draw that goes straight will let you know he's drawing the ball.  The fact that there is a repeatable result (i.e every time he draws the ball it goes straight) from the swing will give him all the feedback he needs.  You just modify the results to the desired outcome.


LuckyLefty

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2006, 01:35:15 PM »
I stand corrected...along with that HACK!  Ben Hogan...he wouldn't practice usually with a wind from left to right...he should have come to this website...

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS I do agree with you that a FAIR condition is probably a better way of saying it!  As yes ...I loved to practice in to a staight headwind!  To show the ball sidespin easier!  A tail wind on the other hand did mask bad execution.
PPS in bowling I believe a nice blended gradually tapered crown gives a nice set of feedback for a beginning bowler.  A sport shot however which quickly becomes a reverse block I still believe impedes technique progress.

--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

BackToBasics

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2006, 01:50:21 PM »
What is it with you and these analogies????  They are from left field and out of nowhere.  What does Ben Hogan have to do with anything???  Who cares if he wouldn't have practiced with a left to right wind.  Doesn't mean he couldn't have and been as effective.  It was his choice not to.

You really need to stop getting so defensive when someone posts an opinion, supported by examples, that contradicts yours.

TWOHAND834

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2006, 02:27:26 PM »
achappy,

Anyone that knows about the game of golf knows that it is easier to control a fade than a draw.  If you do not know how to hit a fade successfully, you will not be competitive on the major TOURS.  

Ben Hogan probably would not have been as effective simply because he was training against a wind direction that most right handed golfers would not prefer to see.  If you fade a ball on a left to right wind, you have just created a slice or power fade at best.  A right hander would almost rather have a right to left wind instead because it is easier to fade the ball against it than vice versa.  But, obviously, as a pro, he was already comfortable hitting against right to left wind.  So, to step up his game, he trained on the left to right to develop that technique where he could transfer that to the course.  Therefore he knew what kind of shot no matter what dorection the wind was coming from.

As far as LuckyLefty is concerned, he was just making a general analogy that training methods in bowling can relate to the training methods in golf.  Lefties remarks as far as it being easier to loosen up your arm swing on an easier shot is almost obvious.  It is easier simply because you do not have to concentrate on a spot on the lane, but an area.  On the flip side, if you are bowling on a sport shot or flat pattern, you tend to tighten up because you focus more on the spot on the lane and dont think about the armswing nearly as much.

Bamaster,

I can answer your initial question.  He does not need quotes or anything.  It is common sense.  It is easier to develop a technique on easier conditions because you are loose.  On a tougher condition, you tend to tighten up and most of the time, your mental game gets in the way of the physical.  You develop technique first and then transfer what you have learned to a tougher condition.  If someone is trying to learn how to bowl, they want to see results, which in return, boosts up their mental game.  So, do you try to teach them on a sport pattern to start or something easier so they get some positive feedback of what they are doing?  Common sense.
--------------------
Steven Vance
Former Pro Shop Operator

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Steven Vance
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BackToBasics

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Re: I like to lock topics....but I am for free speech!
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2006, 03:00:24 PM »
quote:
Anyone that knows about the game of golf knows that it is easier to control a fade than a draw. If you do not know how to hit a fade successfully, you will not be competitive on the major TOURS.

Ben Hogan probably would not have been as effective simply because he was training against a wind direction that most right handed golfers would not prefer to see. If you fade a ball on a left to right wind, you have just created a slice or power fade at best. A right hander would almost rather have a right to left wind instead because it is easier to fade the ball against it than vice versa. But, obviously, as a pro, he was already comfortable hitting against right to left wind. So, to step up his game, he trained on the left to right to develop that technique where he could transfer that to the course. Therefore he knew what kind of shot no matter what dorection the wind was coming from.


I understand all that.  My point is that that was his choice to train the best way he knew how to achieve the results he wanted.  Those are fine tuning aspects of training.  Being able to have complete ball control and shot selection depending on the wind and shot at hand.

However, LL used an example of teaching someone how to hit a draw and claimed that he could teach someone to hit the draw in 1/2 time needed by going to no wind.  I countered that statement by saying the same results can be achieved by altering what you expect to happen.  The desired outcome is to have the student develop an in-out swing path that allows a draw.  That's a physical goal that has no bearing on the wind direction which is an outside influence.  That swing path can still be developed regardless of what the ball actually does.  Just like the oil pattern doesn't matter when trying to switch someone from a full roller to a 3/4 roller.

The Ben Hogan comment is LL's way of getting shots in.  But they are old and tired.  He hates to be corrected or countered (like when he went all hissy about a correction I made on some core shapes in some Track balls).




Edited on 7/26/2006 2:58 PM