Author Topic: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical... (Read 4495 times)

JessN16 · « **on:** October 30, 2007, 03:45:21 PM »

...what does that say about your game? Anything?

I've found over the years that the balls I performed best with were assymetrical-cored balls. Most all of my best scores came with either an old AMF bone XS (a Mo Pinel-designed assym), or members of the Storm X-Factor and Paradigm lines.

Meanwhile, I have not had as good luck with symmetrical-cored balls.

I've noticed, on the assyms, that the drillings my driller selected for me allowed the ball to get deeper down the lane and make a firm, deliberate move to the pocket off the dry. I guess you could call that "angular" but I don't want to call up visions of the proverbial "skid-snap" ball everyone seems to want.

My question to you is, if I told you that I preferred assyms, or performed better with assyms, would that tell you anything about my game without seeing me bowl?

Jess

DanH78 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2007, 11:17:11 PM »

quote:
If you took it with any attitude that was a mean type Im sorry. I just found it funny that guys still call a ball symetrical after they have it drilled. It isnt a big deal. I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed. Most drillers dont get much info on the bowler after they ask, "What is your style? Are you a rev dominate stroker or speed?" That is what most drillers get. I think that is the reason so many people dont like stronger Asymetrical stuff. Once again if you took my attitude in a mean way, I am sorry. I just find it funny that guys call a drilled ball "Symetrical"

And Scoot, what you have to realize is that most bowlers do not understand the difference between High MB, Low MB, RG, Differential, etc. No matter how much you try to explain, they're not gonna get it. So you speak in the simplest terms that everyone can understand. Jargon gets you nowhere. You can show a picture of two cores and easily see which is symetrical and which is asymetrical pre-drilling. Drill some holes, then try to explain why it's now High MB vs. Low MB and you're gonna lose 98% of your customers. I really hope you don't come off as arrogant and condescending in person as you do online because that would make me walk right out of your shop and not look back.
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It IS next year!

JessN16 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2007, 12:40:48 AM »

Since I started this, I guess I need to also state for the record that I'm not a dimwit, either. I know what happens to symmetrical-cored balls, post-drilling. I would think 99 percent of the members of a site dedicated to bowling ball technology would, too.

For that matter, try this one: Take a symmetrical-cored ball, and DON'T drill it. Turn it 45 degrees and roll it granny-style, and the attitude it presents toward the lane itself will be assymetric (unless it finds its way back to its two primary axes). The only way a ball truly rolls "symmetrically" is if it is orientated squarely on its X and Y axes.

The use of "assym" versus "sym" implies terminology most of us probably understand by now and just saves keystrokes.

And, as someone else mentioned, I really would hope you wouldn't laugh at me if I used these shortcut terms in your presence at your shop. You can ask the management at my previous shop, Bowler's Advantage in Smyrna, Tenn., if I'm a good customer. No telling how many thousands I spent in that place -- partially because there was mutual respect between driller(s) and customer. It also explains a good bit of the reason that, since I moved to a new area and had a very bad experience with my local shop over a separate customer service issue, I'll probably be drilling my own stuff within the year. Just some friendly customer advice, there.

Jess

Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2007, 11:37:30 AM »

When I say I laugh it is just a little mental laugh to myself. I know what you guys mean when you say these things. It wasnt to long ago that I was not as deep in the rabbit hole. I dont try to come off in any way, and if you meet me in person you would more then likly got the feeling you knew more then me unless we really got to talking. Over all my laughing is really to companys who still use terms like symetrical. They are the ones who I feel should get the terms right. If they addressed things the right way, more people would understand better.

Once again if it seems like I am coming off in a bad way, sorry. I dont mean to but the generalization and the use of the word symetrical is something I just dont like. Yet until the world changes there thinking I will put up with it.

Now BO,

You have drillers who know your game and approach a new customer the right way. I do to, in that it was Carl and now it is me. I also do the same with a new customer. However we are in the minority when it comes to that. You would probly be amazed at how many bowlers out there, who think there ball driller is the best, dont know what there PAP is. Like I say you, me, maybe most people on BR are in the minority.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

Tag Team Coaching Success Story.

shelley · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2007, 11:45:10 AM »

quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.

Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.

I wonder how much you really believe what you say.

SH

T-GOD · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2007, 01:01:19 PM »

Absolute,

quote:
bowlers using asymmetrical cores are usually straighter players with lower revs rates. They also like tougher lane conditions.

quote:
you would have seen Tommy using a high end asymmetrical piece and piping the ball to the 1-3 yet still carrying with awesome pin action on a 50ft condition.

Because Tommy was "piping the ball to the 1-3 pocket", he was playing straight, on a tough condition. I'm sure his rev rate was also lower than normal when playing like this. So, I think I pretty much nailed it.

quote:
Alot of people with weaker releases also don't have the consistency to release the ball with a similar axis rotation each shot also. Why on earth would you suggest an asymmetrical piece for someone who can't throw the ball the same each shot?

So you're saying weaker release bowlers have inconsistent releases..? I know plenty of high rev bowlers who have inconsistent releases. Definitely bowlers that have inconsistent releases will benefit more using symmetrical cores.

But, here's the catch. Most asymmetrical balls have strong covers. The strong covers make up for weaker releases. Does this make sense..?

quote:
Based on your theory, High performance balls should be symmetrical because many high performance bowlers have strong releases, and low performance/entry level balls should be asymmetrical because entry level bowlers generally have weaker releases... I don't understand that theory one bit.

Based on your T. Jones rebuttal to me and me showing you how what I said in my post matched exactly how Tommy Jones was playing the lanes, I can see why you don't understand my theories or bowling very well.

quote:
weaker releases also don't have the consistency to release the ball with a similar axis rotation each shot

What you're saying is that weaker release bowlers aren't as good as stronger release bowlers.

X-Guy is pretty smart and well respected within the bowling industry. He agrees with me 100%, so that should mean something to you. =:^D

Edited on 11/2/2007 1:08 PM

Edited on 11/2/2007 9:40 PM

Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2007, 01:37:32 PM »

quote:
quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.

Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.

I wonder how much you really believe what you say.

SH

The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

Tag Team Coaching Success Story.

Djarum · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2007, 01:56:44 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.

Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.

I wonder how much you really believe what you say.

SH

The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

Tag Team Coaching Success Story.

That is your opinion. But it still is an assymetrical ball by definition of what an asymetrical ball is. A spade is a spade by any other name.

Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.

shelley · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2007, 09:50:39 PM »

quote:
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.

Yeah, when I hear it from more people who don't go down on their knees every time a Track employee walks by, then maybe it could be credible. Really, physics is physics, and maybe the physics of a 0.031 mid-diff ball are different than the physics of a 0.020 mid-diff ball, but it'll take a lot more than a "staffer" to convince me that your 0.031 mid-diff ball is different from another 0.031 mid-diff ball.

SH

chitown · « **Reply #24 on:** November 03, 2007, 11:14:26 AM »

I like symmetrical bowling balls better than asymmetrical.

Asymmetrical bowling balls tend to be release sensitive for me. If I miss on the release the ball tends to hit flat and leaves splits on pocket hits.

If I miss on my release using symmetrical equipment they still hit good on pocket hits.

I've just had better success with symmetrical equipment.

Mark T. Trgovac · « **Reply #25 on:** November 04, 2007, 01:18:22 AM »

quote:
quote:
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.

Yeah, when I hear it from more people who don't go down on their knees every time a Track employee walks by, then maybe it could be credible. Really, physics is physics, and maybe the physics of a 0.031 mid-diff ball are different than the physics of a 0.020 mid-diff ball, but it'll take a lot more than a "staffer" to convince me that your 0.031 mid-diff ball is different from another 0.031 mid-diff ball.

SH

Your really funny. Saying I get on my knees when a track employee walks by. I dont favor any company. I use what ever I want to use, and the fact is I dont care who someone works for. They are normaly people, not to mention that I know and work with Carl. He is a Track Employee, and he still gets the same old treatment I always gave him. Nothing special to me just the fact that a buddy is getting his name out there. Now I never said that the Rising works any differrent then another .030+ ball. I havent used the LevRG yet, and if I do I wont pull punches. I dont care who makes the ball, I give no respect to a ball that doesnt perform. I love the Shock n Awe from Morich, yet I completly hate the Onslaught. I loved my Animal by track, but I completly hated the Animal untamed. Heck I loved my Icon, yet I hated the Icon 300, and the entire Boss Series. You need to watch what you say anyway. The use of hidden puns and meanings is really only something that someone who has no less then 100% confidence is what he types.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio

Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194

Track HITMAN.

Tag Team Coaching Success Story.

six pack · « **Reply #26 on:** November 04, 2007, 09:18:04 AM »

here's my take on all this asymmetric vrs. symmetric and now mid diff asymmetric
based off of what results I have found with the balls I've owned in the recent.

Track Mean Machine(asymmetrical) more length with a more defined faster break point down lane.either has the same reaction down lane or no reaction at all due to poor match up with the cover on lane.

Columbia Resurgence(symmetrical)smooth mid lane breakpoint,slower break and closer.it has the ability to hook in the mids and still has enough energy to carry the pins.the core/ball seems to be less affected by the lane conditions and the reaction is less defined as the mean machine.

Hammer No Mercy(mid diff asymmetrical)the reaction of this ball was smack dab in the middle of the resurgence and the mean.length but smoother backend and not as temperamental on the lane conditions.

people seem to think asymmetrical balls are release sensitive but I feel they are more condition specific then symmetrical cover/core needs to match up well for the desired results more then symmetrical you can change you're release for the changing lane conditions but that has not proven bennifical for me with the asymmetrical cores and works well with the symmetrical.

so the advantage with asymmetrical is more length and a more pronounced break point,and they carry very well.
advantage for symmetrical is they are not as condition specific and work better with release changes or inconsistent releases,easier cover changes too.

now we bring in the mid diff asymmetrical.I can understand why Track is so pumped up about the Rising because I've owned the baby brother to this ball.the No Mercy gave me the best of both worlds with the asymmetrical and symmetrical.
more length with a strong cover
more defined break point
less condition specific
and carried very good.
Ebonite/Hammer/Track claimed less specific drill layouts with this type of core but I have to disagree given all the bad past history of the N.M.but if you match up the pin and mid diff to you're pap and track the no mercy's performance was fantastic.
reading over the months I've found some Track people to be somewhat un- informative and more arrogant, denounced the no mercy as a dud but hyped the heck out of the rising,it's basically the same technology on core physics,yes the rising is another step above the no mercy core and the no mercy was the best ball I've ever owned to date.

all the balls I've mentioned were drilled with the same pin to pap distance of 41/2" to pap.the mean has the m.b. closer to the val but I also have the power machine with the m.b. next to thumb and the reaction is similar but not exact.
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playing with track this year,Phenom,Mean machine,power machine and Inertia.(opps,bought a Columbia ball)what's up with that?it's all Ebonite

Edited on 11/4/2007 10:21 AM

Author Topic: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical... (Read 4495 times)

JessN16

If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

DanH78

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

JessN16

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

shelley

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

T-GOD

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

Djarum

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

shelley

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

chitown

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

Mark T. Trgovac

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...

six pack

Re: If you like assymetrical core balls better than symmetrical...