Post by: JessN16 on October 30, 2007, 03:45:21 PM
I've found over the years that the balls I performed best with were assymetrical-cored balls. Most all of my best scores came with either an old AMF bone XS (a Mo Pinel-designed assym), or members of the Storm X-Factor and Paradigm lines.
Meanwhile, I have not had as good luck with symmetrical-cored balls.
I've noticed, on the assyms, that the drillings my driller selected for me allowed the ball to get deeper down the lane and make a firm, deliberate move to the pocket off the dry. I guess you could call that "angular" but I don't want to call up visions of the proverbial "skid-snap" ball everyone seems to want.
My question to you is, if I told you that I preferred assyms, or performed better with assyms, would that tell you anything about my game without seeing me bowl?
Jess
Post by: northface28 on October 30, 2007, 11:51:00 PM
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Make history or sit back and watch it. -EV
Post by: JessN16 on October 31, 2007, 12:34:10 AM
Pretty darn close. I'd say about 75 percent of it or more was dead on.
Ball tracks: I used to be a VERY high track player. Now, not usually. My PAP is now 4 over and 3/8 up, and I sometimes have a small track circumference area, but also sometimes have a large track circumference area. I did bowl with a wrist brace for some time, I do have an old wrist injury, and I do have a flexibility issue in my wrist.
However, I've practiced a lot of different hand positions and release techniques, and I can throw a true spinner if I want to or come straight up the back of the ball if I need to. I'm versatile.
I don't repeat shots well, however. Damn, I wish you had been right about that one. One the majority of nights, I can, but sometimes, I'm terribly erratic.
I do prefer similar breakpoint looks across multiple equipment, but it's not necessary. I will, usually, change balls if I have that option rather than change the breakpoint shape I'm looking for. But if that option isn't there, I do have at least enough talent to have a "B" or "C" look that I can go to. But they are "B" and "C" for a reason.
I am righthanded.
Your best Nostradamus moment came with your comments about playing deep inside -- I hate having to do it, ever. When I bowled PBA Experience, I played the Shark pattern the way Norm Duke plays it a lot of the time -- off the corner, ball pointed at the pocket from the get-go. I can change speeds fairly easily, but the higher my speed is, the more limited my options are in terms of tilt/rotation manipulation, and I begin to track high at high speeds. If I have to throw hard from a deep inside angle, I'm easily beaten.
I do trust drillers implicitly. It typically takes a while for me to develop trust in a driller, but once I do, I'd throw the ball with my foot if they told me that's what was best for me.
I'm definitely not a whiner/complainer. I'd say 99 percent of my past failures in bowling were absolutely, directly my fault. People who constantly complain about lane conditions get on my nerves. I'll gripe, too -- but I'll gripe about my inability to figure them out. Everyone on a pair has to deal with the same conditions. Only if, say, I'm at a tournament and the condition isn't equal for all will I ever speak up.
I'm going to take my rev rate information out of my profile, because I honestly don't know anymore. I've had people watch me and tell me everything from 160 to 400, so it's obvious I need to get in front of a CATS machine and find out for sure. I know over the last two years I've added a bunch of revs. As for speed, I can adjust between about 13.5 to around 18.5 (average for the entire length of the lane) as needed, and I generate as much as 25+ on spares when I'm throwing straight.
Jess
Edited on 10/31/2007 0:35 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on October 31, 2007, 09:11:14 AM
quote:
I prefer symmetrical balls as they are not so touchy to drill as assymetrical balls with heavy MB's.
Ditto for me - I found "conventional" symmetric core balls to be more versatile overall, while strong MB balls are good for special purposes. I found their spectrum of use more limited - but within these boundraies, they are VERY effective. It is a trade-off.
Taking this imression further, I do not think that sym. vs. asym. tells much about style. It is rather about the reaction you want to achieve on the lane - and if you know exactly what you want, a high MB ball can be just the right ticket to (more) success.
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Post by: T-GOD on October 31, 2007, 10:00:17 AM
Bowlers with stronger releases and higher rev rates don't need more angle to the pocket and tend like the control of symmetrical cores.
So, what that says about your game is that bowlers using asymmetrical cores are usually straighter players with lower revs rates. They also like tougher lane conditions. =:^D
Post by: T-GOD on October 31, 2007, 01:39:35 PM
Post by: JessN16 on October 31, 2007, 07:27:45 PM
Jess
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 31, 2007, 07:34:30 PM
I'm moving to stronger balls to help do it!
I'm creating shots with drillings and assymetrics which I believe are going to have me near the 3rd arrow creating a lot of area on our league shot!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: JessN16 on October 31, 2007, 10:06:59 PM
quote:
You low track, is that with both types of cores, or just the asymmetrical balls?
Bowlers tend to be more accurate than they believe they are. I would suggest perhaps during a practise session and getting a viewer to tell you over a game or so your ball position at the arrows and the breakpoint. When you suggested that you have a profile, I got in there and saw you are a 190-200 average bowler. You still have to be pretty consistent in shot direction to average a deuce, even on quite easy conditions. Perhaps your problem isn't shot direction, but you try to repeat the shot rather than the feeling of each delivery. Focuss on trusting the feeling of the shot to repeat even better than I truely suspect you do.
Repeating is probably only a small part of posting scores on house shots these days. It's more about playing the right line. Even if you personally think you are making bad shots when you leave pins, try to believe in your ability enough to not have to double check a reaction, and make a confident adjustment just like you would if you had thrown the shot 100%. Today's game is more about lane management than making absolute pure shots.
A good way to play better inside, is to stand a little closer to the foul line during the start of the delivery. If you do this, and make sure you complete the follow through on every single delivery, you will be able to post shots a little better. It's best to work on this with symmetrical gear, and make the moves as you see them. As a right hander, you have to accept that there are many times where getting outside is physically impossible if you are looking to score.
I too favour a more simple line, and score well when I get to play it. Problem is, being able to get outside is rarer than hens teeth for righties these days. The quicker you mentally accept it, and develop your inside game as much as your down and in game, you will start to see better scores.
I currently get the feeling you are thinking "Damn I have to get inside now" instead of thinking "sweet, I can get in deep and get some strikes" change what you tell yourself next time you have to play in, and I guarantee it will improve your results.
Sometimes the best change we can make, is a change of our viewpoint.
Regards.
When I low track, it's usually because I adjusted my tilt or changed my release to make it that way.
However, I can typically make an assym low-track a little more than a symmetrical-core ball, depending on the drill pattern, of course.
Where I have a problem playing inside is the area to which I miss. If I'm playing my preferred line, which is somewhere over 8 to 15 at the arrows out to anywhere from 3 to 8 at the breakpoint, when I miss, I tend to miss left. If I had to choose, on league night, between hold and recovery, I'd take hold, because I can really control the tendency to swing it too far (I learned to bowl in a house with above-ground ball returns, and on the righthand lane of a pair, I couldn't get far enough left to swing it, so I had to discipline myself to go straight down anything from about 3 to 10).
However, for some stupid reason, this all changes when I move inside. I'm just as likely to miss right as left. Or -- and this is a new problem, since I dropped the wrist brace last year -- I'll be too conscious about pulling the ball, and I won't get enough revs on it. What I've done in that situation is throw a lame duck that, if it gets back to the head pin, leaves me with a loaded bucket on the left or a 2-4-10.
Perhaps this is where some of my versatility works against me. I'm capable of going straight up the boards outside of 5 on the right. So when the oil disappears left of 5, and everyone else starts moving in, I can grab something less aggressive, move out to where no one else is, and start piping it.
But I need to get better at playing in, because Tuesday night, I got myself in a pickle. My house rotates its house shot between five house-style patterns, and this week, they threw out one of the lowest-volume patters of the year. It didn't help that I was bowling against a very good team, and one of those guys was throwing an aggressive ball starting left of me, crossing my line, hitting my breakpoint and hooking, with more speed and revs than I can generate. So my line broke down quickly.
By the eighth frame of that first game, the ball that I'd used for three games the previous week was fighting to just stay alive. I made three major moves in eight frames, with feet, speed and eyes. I then switched to something less aggressive, and that worked until about frame six of the second game. Then, I started running into one of this guy's teammates' line.
So I pulled out the least aggressive thing I had, and started going up 4-6. This worked until one of my opponents started going straight up 5-8. That took away any hold area I had, and made every shot nerve-wracking. I still shot 560-something on the night (my average is 579), but I had no big numbers.
I would have liked to move inside and played 15 left at the breakpoint, but I don't have that shot in my bag/hands at the moment.
Jess
Post by: JessN16 on October 31, 2007, 11:39:03 PM
Have I also mentioned that I'm righthanded but strongly left-eye dominant? It's a swell mix. (g)
If I look at 10, I typically hit 13-14, unless I really, REALLY focus.
The only thing in that list of suggestions I'm going to be slow to try is loading up weight on my left leg. I weigh more than I should to start with, but it doesn't help that I've got some cartilage issues in my right knee and a very mildly strained ligament in my left.
I actually have good balance despite my weight and usually can bowl pain-free, but I have to carefully watch any adjustments I make with the lower body. I finally, over the last two years, found an optimum spine tilt that allows me to compensate for the leg problems but maintain a good leverage position at the line.
Equipment question: If I'm trying to play deep inside, what would be the general qualities I would want in a ball itself? I don't want a specific ball suggestion, just a set of criteria (particularly as it pertains to surface). I've got 34 balls in the house and I'll be able to find something close.
Jess
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 01, 2007, 04:57:35 AM
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Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: mainzer on November 01, 2007, 01:42:49 PM
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Mainzerpower
Post by: Rileybowler on November 01, 2007, 02:11:38 PM
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Carl
Post by: Dan Belcher on November 01, 2007, 02:30:33 PM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 01, 2007, 09:29:47 PM
quote:quote:
All this talk about using a symmetrical ball. I laugh, because those of you who say you use them must not put any holes into the ball. I mean seeing how there is no such thing as a Symmetrical ball after you drill one. You only have a low MB ball. There is no post-drilled symmetrical ball, no matter how you look at it.
I don't believe anyone (at least I'm not) is saying there is a post-drilled Symmetrical ball Mark. We are talking about a ball being a Symmetric ball prior to drilling, so the laugh is on you. If you will note, I even mentioned that extremely weak assymetric balls will work for me and I am sure they may for others also that prefer symmetric cored balls, but heavy MB balls DO NOT WORK for me and I'm sure there are others that may say likewise and I am talking about a heavy MB prior to drilling. I have had way too many expensive lessons or in other words bought way too many expensive heavy MB balls only to find out none will work for me and they have been drilled by knowledgable drillers with way more years of experience and knowledge than you have even thought of accumalating, especially when you are only an 18 year old or so kid.
Sorry for the rant, but the attitude of your post just didn't sit right with me.
Edited on 11/1/2007 7:12 PM
If you took it with any attitude that was a mean type Im sorry. I just found it funny that guys still call a ball symetrical after they have it drilled. It isnt a big deal. I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed. Most drillers dont get much info on the bowler after they ask, "What is your style? Are you a rev dominate stroker or speed?" That is what most drillers get. I think that is the reason so many people dont like stronger Asymetrical stuff. Once again if you took my attitude in a mean way, I am sorry. I just find it funny that guys call a drilled ball "Symetrical"
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Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: DanH78 on November 01, 2007, 11:17:11 PM
quote:
If you took it with any attitude that was a mean type Im sorry. I just found it funny that guys still call a ball symetrical after they have it drilled. It isnt a big deal. I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed. Most drillers dont get much info on the bowler after they ask, "What is your style? Are you a rev dominate stroker or speed?" That is what most drillers get. I think that is the reason so many people dont like stronger Asymetrical stuff. Once again if you took my attitude in a mean way, I am sorry. I just find it funny that guys call a drilled ball "Symetrical"
And Scoot, what you have to realize is that most bowlers do not understand the difference between High MB, Low MB, RG, Differential, etc. No matter how much you try to explain, they're not gonna get it. So you speak in the simplest terms that everyone can understand. Jargon gets you nowhere. You can show a picture of two cores and easily see which is symetrical and which is asymetrical pre-drilling. Drill some holes, then try to explain why it's now High MB vs. Low MB and you're gonna lose 98% of your customers. I really hope you don't come off as arrogant and condescending in person as you do online because that would make me walk right out of your shop and not look back.
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It IS next year!
Post by: JessN16 on November 02, 2007, 12:40:48 AM
For that matter, try this one: Take a symmetrical-cored ball, and DON'T drill it. Turn it 45 degrees and roll it granny-style, and the attitude it presents toward the lane itself will be assymetric (unless it finds its way back to its two primary axes). The only way a ball truly rolls "symmetrically" is if it is orientated squarely on its X and Y axes.
The use of "assym" versus "sym" implies terminology most of us probably understand by now and just saves keystrokes.
And, as someone else mentioned, I really would hope you wouldn't laugh at me if I used these shortcut terms in your presence at your shop. You can ask the management at my previous shop, Bowler's Advantage in Smyrna, Tenn., if I'm a good customer. No telling how many thousands I spent in that place -- partially because there was mutual respect between driller(s) and customer. It also explains a good bit of the reason that, since I moved to a new area and had a very bad experience with my local shop over a separate customer service issue, I'll probably be drilling my own stuff within the year. Just some friendly customer advice, there.
Jess
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 02, 2007, 11:37:30 AM
Once again if it seems like I am coming off in a bad way, sorry. I dont mean to but the generalization and the use of the word symetrical is something I just dont like. Yet until the world changes there thinking I will put up with it.
Now BO,
You have drillers who know your game and approach a new customer the right way. I do to, in that it was Carl and now it is me. I also do the same with a new customer. However we are in the minority when it comes to that. You would probly be amazed at how many bowlers out there, who think there ball driller is the best, dont know what there PAP is. Like I say you, me, maybe most people on BR are in the minority.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: shelley on November 02, 2007, 11:45:10 AM
quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.
Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.
I wonder how much you really believe what you say.
SH
Post by: T-GOD on November 02, 2007, 01:01:19 PM
quote:
bowlers using asymmetrical cores are usually straighter players with lower revs rates. They also like tougher lane conditions.
quote:Because Tommy was "piping the ball to the 1-3 pocket", he was playing straight, on a tough condition. I'm sure his rev rate was also lower than normal when playing like this. So, I think I pretty much nailed it.
you would have seen Tommy using a high end asymmetrical piece and piping the ball to the 1-3 yet still carrying with awesome pin action on a 50ft condition.
quote:So you're saying weaker release bowlers have inconsistent releases..? I know plenty of high rev bowlers who have inconsistent releases. Definitely bowlers that have inconsistent releases will benefit more using symmetrical cores.
Alot of people with weaker releases also don't have the consistency to release the ball with a similar axis rotation each shot also. Why on earth would you suggest an asymmetrical piece for someone who can't throw the ball the same each shot?
But, here's the catch. Most asymmetrical balls have strong covers. The strong covers make up for weaker releases. Does this make sense..?
quote:Based on your T. Jones rebuttal to me and me showing you how what I said in my post matched exactly how Tommy Jones was playing the lanes, I can see why you don't understand my theories or bowling very well.
Based on your theory, High performance balls should be symmetrical because many high performance bowlers have strong releases, and low performance/entry level balls should be asymmetrical because entry level bowlers generally have weaker releases... I don't understand that theory one bit.
quote:What you're saying is that weaker release bowlers aren't as good as stronger release bowlers.
weaker releases also don't have the consistency to release the ball with a similar axis rotation each shot
X-Guy is pretty smart and well respected within the bowling industry. He agrees with me 100%, so that should mean something to you. =:^D
Edited on 11/2/2007 1:08 PM
Edited on 11/2/2007 9:40 PM
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 02, 2007, 01:37:32 PM
quote:quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.
Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.
I wonder how much you really believe what you say.
SH
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: Djarum on November 02, 2007, 01:56:44 PM
quote:quote:quote:
I just belive that most people who have problems with High MB balls have problems because they are nto drilled for their PAP, VAL, Rev Rate, and Speed.
Unless, of course, it's The Rising, which magically changes all bowlers' PAP into just under 4" over with no vertical component. That allows the driller to put the pin 1" above the grip center and know that the ball is best for all.
I wonder how much you really believe what you say.
SH
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
--------------------
Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
That is your opinion. But it still is an assymetrical ball by definition of what an asymetrical ball is. A spade is a spade by any other name.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: shelley on November 02, 2007, 09:50:39 PM
quote:
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
Yeah, when I hear it from more people who don't go down on their knees every time a Track employee walks by, then maybe it could be credible. Really, physics is physics, and maybe the physics of a 0.031 mid-diff ball are different than the physics of a 0.020 mid-diff ball, but it'll take a lot more than a "staffer" to convince me that your 0.031 mid-diff ball is different from another 0.031 mid-diff ball.
SH
Post by: chitown on November 03, 2007, 11:14:26 AM
Asymmetrical bowling balls tend to be release sensitive for me. If I miss on the release the ball tends to hit flat and leaves splits on pocket hits.
If I miss on my release using symmetrical equipment they still hit good on pocket hits.
I've just had better success with symmetrical equipment.
Post by: Mark T. Trgovac on November 04, 2007, 01:18:22 AM
quote:quote:
The Rising is in no way in this meaning of an Asymetrical ball. The rising is in a class of its own. To really place it in that normal asymetrical area would be like putting a Chevy Corvett Z06 in the same performance area as the Chevy Aveo.
Yeah, when I hear it from more people who don't go down on their knees every time a Track employee walks by, then maybe it could be credible. Really, physics is physics, and maybe the physics of a 0.031 mid-diff ball are different than the physics of a 0.020 mid-diff ball, but it'll take a lot more than a "staffer" to convince me that your 0.031 mid-diff ball is different from another 0.031 mid-diff ball.
SH
Your really funny. Saying I get on my knees when a track employee walks by. I dont favor any company. I use what ever I want to use, and the fact is I dont care who someone works for. They are normaly people, not to mention that I know and work with Carl. He is a Track Employee, and he still gets the same old treatment I always gave him. Nothing special to me just the fact that a buddy is getting his name out there. Now I never said that the Rising works any differrent then another .030+ ball. I havent used the LevRG yet, and if I do I wont pull punches. I dont care who makes the ball, I give no respect to a ball that doesnt perform. I love the Shock n Awe from Morich, yet I completly hate the Onslaught. I loved my Animal by track, but I completly hated the Animal untamed. Heck I loved my Icon, yet I hated the Icon 300, and the entire Boss Series. You need to watch what you say anyway. The use of hidden puns and meanings is really only something that someone who has no less then 100% confidence is what he types.
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Mark "scoot" Trgovac
C-G Pro Shop
Offical "Spokesman"
Youngstown, Ohio
Finishing THS book ave: 200
Finishing PBA Experence ave: 176
Finishing Composit ave: 194
Track HITMAN.
Tag Team Coaching Success Story.
Post by: six pack on November 04, 2007, 09:18:04 AM
based off of what results I have found with the balls I've owned in the recent.
Track Mean Machine(asymmetrical) more length with a more defined faster break point down lane.either has the same reaction down lane or no reaction at all due to poor match up with the cover on lane.
Columbia Resurgence(symmetrical)smooth mid lane breakpoint,slower break and closer.it has the ability to hook in the mids and still has enough energy to carry the pins.the core/ball seems to be less affected by the lane conditions and the reaction is less defined as the mean machine.
Hammer No Mercy(mid diff asymmetrical)the reaction of this ball was smack dab in the middle of the resurgence and the mean.length but smoother backend and not as temperamental on the lane conditions.
people seem to think asymmetrical balls are release sensitive but I feel they are more condition specific then symmetrical cover/core needs to match up well for the desired results more then symmetrical you can change you're release for the changing lane conditions but that has not proven bennifical for me with the asymmetrical cores and works well with the symmetrical.
so the advantage with asymmetrical is more length and a more pronounced break point,and they carry very well.
advantage for symmetrical is they are not as condition specific and work better with release changes or inconsistent releases,easier cover changes too.
now we bring in the mid diff asymmetrical.I can understand why Track is so pumped up about the Rising because I've owned the baby brother to this ball.the No Mercy gave me the best of both worlds with the asymmetrical and symmetrical.
more length with a strong cover
more defined break point
less condition specific
and carried very good.
Ebonite/Hammer/Track claimed less specific drill layouts with this type of core but I have to disagree given all the bad past history of the N.M.but if you match up the pin and mid diff to you're pap and track the no mercy's performance was fantastic.
reading over the months I've found some Track people to be somewhat un- informative and more arrogant, denounced the no mercy as a dud but hyped the heck out of the rising,it's basically the same technology on core physics,yes the rising is another step above the no mercy core and the no mercy was the best ball I've ever owned to date.
all the balls I've mentioned were drilled with the same pin to pap distance of 41/2" to pap.the mean has the m.b. closer to the val but I also have the power machine with the m.b. next to thumb and the reaction is similar but not exact.
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playing with track this year,Phenom,Mean machine,power machine and Inertia.(opps,bought a Columbia ball)what's up with that?it's all Ebonite
Edited on 11/4/2007 10:21 AM