Author Topic: If you refuse to bowl scratch... (Read 5231 times)

9andaWiggle · « **on:** September 03, 2008, 03:51:12 AM »

The Sandbaggers win!

Think about it. No handicap, no sandbaggers. Best man always wins. Isn't that what true competition is about?

Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?

No sir, if I want to beat Tiger, I either have to bash his knee caps in behind the pro shop with a tire iron, or I can spend 30 years and countless dollars on coaching and practice to get good enough to beat him fair and square (and even that's not a guarantee).

Why is bowling different? In little league, you don't give the "bad" team 10 free runs. Football doesn't spot anybody a turnover or two. Basketball doesn't start off with the weaker team shooting 20 free-throws. I could go on, but you get the picture.

What makes it OK to artificially inflate bowler's scores in the name of "leveling the playing field" when other sports do not do this? Or, how come other sports DO NOT handicap their teams to make a more "fair" competition?

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9~

Handicap... The Bowler''s Heroin.

icewall · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:04:01 PM »

this is why I never understood handicap bowling.

Ive been bowling for as long as I could hold onto the ball and still be standing upright. yet I never asked for any help and always knew who the better bowlers were yet watched them always lose in team to the sloppy bowlers who somehow will have 1 amazing game just when they need it (talking about junior bowling back in the mid 90's)

I think that if you want to bowl in only handicap leagues then dont even ask about how to be accurate because that will only hurt you. just sandbag and then bowl great just when it counts.

id be just as happy to suddenly have handicap bowling gone and watch all the cry babies leave. and no im not that good of a bowler just tired of sandbagging... its the crutch of bowling

I think there should be different levels of bowling.

beginner leagues
intermediate
advanced

something to that effect as well as a mixed league where anyone can enter WITH or without handicap I guess depending on what the head of league wants or is popular.... which would then be handicap obviously.

this way no low average bowler would face a 200+ bowler but they could if they wanted to enter the handicap league.

and of course there could be a min and max average but im not going to get into that as im not sure where to cut people off.
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Visionary Test Staff 08/09

all visionary this year

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glad.
glad. pearl

Edited on 9/3/2008 12:12 PM

scotts33 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:08:47 PM »

quote:
Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?

9~,

I think you realize golf is also a sport that is handicapped....do you not? Same bagging situations exist.

I deal with it and don't really find it a problem in leagues. It's in tourney's where out and out baggers who use plastic to establish an average in a tough house (say 170) and then go out and bowl hdcp. tourney's with a 6 ball aresenal and can average 200 and up. That's where I think the real bagging problem excists.

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Scott

1MechEng · « **Reply #3 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:12:41 PM »

Doesn't golf have a handicap system for league golfers?

The handicap system isn't designed to see who's best overall - the bowling average (or golf score avg.) will tell you that. It's designed to try to level the field to bring everyone to the same point for comparison purposes. This lets us see who is doing better relative to his/her mean abilities for any given game (or day).

Sandbagging is just the unfortunate infusion of human greed into an otherwise honest aspect of the game.
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.

Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member

Edited on 9/3/2008 12:13 PM

Pinbuster · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:15:57 PM »

The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.

LordWalrus · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:18:53 PM »

Because every other sport has divisions that separate performance levels. Baseball has the majors, several levels of minor and on down. Golf has its various tours, and you have to qualify to play at the highest levels. Football teams don't let just anyone play. Bowling isn't set up that way. Anyone can come out and bowl in most any league.

Because if there was no handicap there'd be no bowling. The vast majority would quit because they'd have no chance against the best.

If you want a straight up challenge join a scratch league join the "pros". Don't join a handicap league and then complain about handicap. Don't ostracize the people who are making it possible for your local centers to stay in business.
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\/\/

Krumpy300 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:21:51 PM »

quote:
quote:
Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?

9~,

I think you realize golf is also a sport that is handicapped....do you not? Same bagging situations exist.

I deal with it and don't really find it a problem in leagues. It's in tourney's where out and out baggers who use plastic to establish an average in a tough house (say 170) and then go out and bowl hdcp. tourney's with a 6 ball aresenal and can average 200 and up. That's where I think the real bagging problem excists.

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Scott

Agree 1000%. Most of our decent scratch leagues folded due to this.

J_Mac · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:45:02 PM »

Even in scratch leagues with team average caps you'll find a form of sandbagging.
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Pinbuster · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2008, 12:46:16 PM »

That is because caps are a form of handicapping.

charlest · « **Reply #9 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:11:07 PM »

quote:
That is because caps are a form of handicapping.

So how many 2 team scratch leagues are you going to have in any one house, where there's no cap, and only the highest averages can make up a team? So you'll have Two 4 or 5 person teams where everyone's average is 235 - 250. Whoppee! Have fun!

If you want each league to be scratch, for all intents and purposes, each league would have to have only those bowlers within roughly a 10 pin range, like 120 - 129, 130 - 139, 140 - 149. There are few enough leagues now and their numebr are declining all the time.

Of course one way to eliminate sandbaggers is to return to bowling, The Game, where there is little or no money to win. There'd be only the pride of bowling well and scoring well.

From what I can see, from the time I returned to bowling in 1995, roughly 80 - 85% of the men involved in any leagues are there for ONLY one reason - to win money. There is almost no pride or joy in just bowling for the sake of the sport any longer. The more money available as prizes and brackets and pots, the more the unscrupulous and unethical people will find ways to sandbag and other ways to cheat. Money is their one and only objective.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ

Pinbuster · « **Reply #10 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:18:49 PM »

Hasn't been a problem here.

I bowl in a 10 team 5 person classic scratch with no cap.

There is also a 3 person scratch in town with over 30 teams. No cap.

The only capped scratch league in town folded after everyone got tired of raising the caps and baggers keeping under the cap.

nutsforbowling · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:29:48 PM »

There are no scratch leagues around here except for one PBA Experience league. If you can find me one in the Balt/DC area, let us know.

What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM

idriveahonda · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:30:56 PM »

quote:
The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.

INCORRECT.

ANY golfer, amateur or junior, can recieve a cash prize of under $500 in cash, and any sort of prize for hole in one, longest drive, closest to the pin, under a verified amount. Cars and such are still under USGA stipulation as to whether they should be able to be accepted by amateurs.

Trust me, I've won money in tournaments, but have had to decline portions of it to meet college eligibility standards.

DP3 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2008, 01:43:55 PM »

quote:
There are no scratch leagues around here except for one PBA Experience league. If you can find me one in the Balt/DC area, let us know.

What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM

Wednesday Night Trios, Laurel Lanes in Laurel, MD. Cap: 635 for 3 man team.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD

boomtown24 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:00:14 PM »

quote:
quote:
The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.

INCORRECT.

ANY golfer, amateur or junior, can receive a cash prize of under $500 in cash, and any sort of prize for hole in one, longest drive, closest to the pin, under a verified amount. Cars and such are still under USGA stipulation as to whether they should be able to be accepted by amateurs.

Trust me, I've won money in tournaments, but have had to decline portions of it to meet college eligibility standards.

I'm sorry Honda but you are incorrect, you CANNOT under any circumstances receive a CASH prize if you are an amateur. Boats, cars, et. are a one time occurrence and are permissible by todays USGA rules. I've competed in 100's of amateur golf tournaments around the country and know the rules inside and out. You can receive a gift certificates to the amount of $750 but that is it. Paramutuals and calcutta's are another story. Much goes on under the table but officially you are NOT ALLOWED to accept cash. Big difference between bowling and golf.

Author Topic: If you refuse to bowl scratch... (Read 5231 times)

9andaWiggle

If you refuse to bowl scratch...

icewall

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

scotts33

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

1MechEng

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

Pinbuster

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

LordWalrus

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

Krumpy300

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

J_Mac

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

Pinbuster

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

charlest

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

Pinbuster

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

nutsforbowling

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

idriveahonda

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

DP3

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...

boomtown24

Re: If you refuse to bowl scratch...