Author Topic: If you refuse to bowl scratch... (Read 5233 times)

9andaWiggle · « **on:** September 03, 2008, 03:51:12 AM »

The Sandbaggers win!

Think about it. No handicap, no sandbaggers. Best man always wins. Isn't that what true competition is about?

Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?

No sir, if I want to beat Tiger, I either have to bash his knee caps in behind the pro shop with a tire iron, or I can spend 30 years and countless dollars on coaching and practice to get good enough to beat him fair and square (and even that's not a guarantee).

Why is bowling different? In little league, you don't give the "bad" team 10 free runs. Football doesn't spot anybody a turnover or two. Basketball doesn't start off with the weaker team shooting 20 free-throws. I could go on, but you get the picture.

What makes it OK to artificially inflate bowler's scores in the name of "leveling the playing field" when other sports do not do this? Or, how come other sports DO NOT handicap their teams to make a more "fair" competition?

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9~

Handicap... The Bowler''s Heroin.

triggerman · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:05:01 PM »

the cure for sandbagging, two words

LIFETIME AVERAGES

by keeping a lifetime average, it becomes increasingly harder for an individual to bag, include all tourneys and leagues for one yearbook score, you start next year off of that and continue to figure average for the total number of games bowled. with major tourneys IE nationals Hoinke, and the big money tourneys getting a heavier score in your lifetime average. Then and only then do you eliminate sandbagging
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www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

trash heap · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:18:52 PM »

trigger,

Your idea still has a loop hole. A true sandbagger doesn't always come in first or cash everytime. They pick and choose when they want to turn it on. Blow it in one tourney then score well in the other.

A bagger works at cheating the system.

I think your idea would work against those who blatantly bag but the true baggers are the ones that don't call attention to themselves.

louie · « **Reply #18 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:19:42 PM »

Bowling is not a sport. It's a game. It's always been a game. The comparisons to golf and other sports are just silly. There are mostly handycap leagues to keep the game fun and the bowling centers filled. I know you guys want bowling to be considered a sport, but it is no more a sport than horseshoes or darts.
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Why does everyone laugh when I bowl?

louie

supernoodle · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:31:26 PM »

Its an unfortunate problem but there does not seem to be any way of satisfying ALL bowlers. If you get rid of handicap you alienate the lower average bowlers,who lets be honest make up the majority of bowlers. If they go then there may not be any bowling.

On the flip side if you get people sandbagging it takes away what little credibility our sport does have in the world of competitive sports.

As has been said before the introduction of prize money has made sandbagging more prevelent as happens in all walks of life when money is involved. Unless we have a system which does not make this profitable,then its always going to happen.

In regards to you Charlest,I used to bowl with a bunch of back stabbing hacks but after they "Dropped me" I went and decided to bowl with some bowlers in the 130-150 odd range whilst i'm on around 215. We may not win the league but I do not have to put up with those kind of shenanigans and come down to try to win,improve my game and enjoy myself. I could never sandbag as it would make any victory hollow and I would never want any of my achievements to feel that way.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.

Edited on 9/3/2008 2:32 PM

Xcessive_Evil · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:36:54 PM »

quote:
We may not win the league but I do not have to put up with those kind of shenanigans and come down to try to win,improve my game and enjoy myself. I could never sandbag as it would make any victory hollow and I would never want any of my achievements to feel that way.

I agree with this 100%. My team and the whole league wasn't that good as a whole, but I can't remember the last time I had so much fun and it showed when I went in with two honor scores and left with 5(300, 299, 290 unfortunately not all in the same night).

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I don't mean to be high speed/high rev, I was just born that way.

High game-300
High series-796

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Current%20Track%20arsenal/?albumview=grid

www.youtube.com/Track8401

triggerman · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:42:47 PM »

quote:
trigger,

Your idea still has a loop hole. A true sandbagger doesn't always come in first or cash everytime. They pick and choose when they want to turn it on. Blow it in one tourney then score well in the other.

A bagger works at cheating the system.

I think your idea would work against those who blatantly bag but the true baggers are the ones that don't call attention to themselves.

so very true but they have to work harder at it, if say big money tourneys have to take the scores of all the cashers and make them 10 fold into your lifetime average, those "thinking" baggers will soon find their average up where it should be based upon tourney placings

the lifetime average takes the "I'll take this year and bag to get a good average for next year" out the window. one would have to become a lifetime bagger

I agree that people will find a way to cheat no matter what, but trying to tighten the noose is the way to go

9~ sorry to get off topic, I for one will be bowling a scratch league this year
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www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

renoatpikeville · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2008, 02:45:56 PM »

Dont mean to hyjack but here's a idea that I do not take credit for.

'Draft League'

ex.

20 team roster
captians are chosen--20 of them

round 1--team 1 to 20 pick in order.
round 2--team 20 to 1 in reverse order.
repeat...3 man team two rounds. 4 man team three rounds...so on.

No baggin' here.

DON DRAPER · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2008, 03:25:19 PM »

years ago when i was a handicap bowler i always wanted to bowl scratch tournaments. i wanter to earn every pin i got.

another300 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2008, 03:30:00 PM »

There will always be sandbaggers. Some of the ideas and suggestions made in this thread would lessen it drastically.
One thing I have noticed that is fairly common in "true sandbaggers" is their league averages compared to tournament averages are 20-30 pins different. In leagues, they average 180's to 190's. But in Tournaments they are booking 220+. Just an example. There does seem to be quite a few pins difference between league and tournament bowling.
We do have the technology to capture ALL sanctioned games for individuals and enter them into a national database. Unfortunately it's not going to happen. It's all left up to the morals a person has and as we all know, some people have no morals!

Kid Jete · « **Reply #25 on:** September 03, 2008, 03:30:11 PM »

quote:
No sir, if I want to beat Tiger, I either have to bash his knee caps in behind the pro shop with a tire iron, or I can spend 30 years and countless dollars on coaching and practice to get good enough to beat him fair and square (and even that's not a guarantee).

You could spend as much time and money on instruction as humanly possible and still not even sniff Tiger, let alone anyone else on tour lol.

NtheDitch · « **Reply #26 on:** September 03, 2008, 03:48:01 PM »

Ok I'm a 180-190 average bowler only in my 2nd fall season and I bowl in two mens leagues that both use 90% of the floor averages for team handicap, individual has no bearing on anything except pots and brackets. The thing that has me most upset is not when I get beat by more handicap or by a scratch bowler.. what upsets me is when I get gripped at by a scratch bowler who I just beat in a bracket or pot with out my handicap. I have just as much right to bowl well and win as anyone. There is no solution so resume the rant about bowlers like me.
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"Don"t leave it if you can't pick it up"

nutsforbowling · « **Reply #27 on:** September 03, 2008, 04:17:33 PM »

quote:
quote:
There are no scratch leagues around here except for one PBA Experience league. If you can find me one in the Balt/DC area, let us know.

What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM

Wednesday Night Trios, Laurel Lanes in Laurel, MD. Cap: 635 for 3 man team.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD

OK, but I bowl at Greenway on wednesday in Pioneer Men's. Thanks for the info though.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

another300 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 03, 2008, 05:33:51 PM »

quote:
Ok I'm a 180-190 average bowler only in my 2nd fall season and I bowl in two mens leagues that both use 90% of the floor averages for team handicap, individual has no bearing on anything except pots and brackets. The thing that has me most upset is not when I get beat by more handicap or by a scratch bowler.. what upsets me is when I get gripped at by a scratch bowler who I just beat in a bracket or pot with out my handicap. I have just as much right to bowl well and win as anyone. There is no solution so resume the rant about bowlers like me.

Bowlers like you? Back in the day it took bowlers 5-10 years to start averaging 180-190. Are we talking about bowlers like you? Let me ask you this, do you bowl in tournaments? If so, do you average 20,30,40 pins higher during tournament play? Since this is your 2nd year bowling, it's not about bowlers like you. This is about bowlers who have been bowling for years but only average in the high 180's to 190's during league play. But if someone was to get their averages from tournaments, they would have a 20-30 pin higher average.

supernoodle · « **Reply #29 on:** September 03, 2008, 05:53:18 PM »

quote:
years ago when i was a handicap bowler i always wanted to bowl scratch tournaments. i wanter to earn every pin i got.

You and me both! I used to look at the top guys bowling with Zero handicap and I used to think "I hope I'm that good some day" and every week I tried my best in order to reach that level. These days its all about how many bucks (Pounds for my British brethren) you can make,not aspiring to be the best you can at all times.

Some people just have no problem cheating in this way,maybe there should be v.severe punishments (such as lifetime ban) for anyone proven beyond reasonbale doubt to have sandbagged. I know it would be hard to prove but if one person gets found out and punished it may act as a deterent to others and if it stops a few people from doing it,surely its worth it.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.

Edited on 9/3/2008 5:53 PM

tdub36tjt · « **Reply #30 on:** September 03, 2008, 05:58:53 PM »

If they could somehow control people who bag for tournament purposes the amount of bagging would be very low. The only way they would ever be able to control this is for all tournament scores to be sent to an organization like the USBC and for them to develop ones "tournament average". However, the amount of work needed for this would never be done IMO. If each person had a league average and a tournament average there would be very little point in bagging.

A way to possibly control lesague bagging might be: Everyone has a "handicap average". To create this average, you use a generic number of games say 90 games for each person and their handicap average starts with 90 games at the average from the previous season. This will make it so a few good games or a few "bagged" games will hardly affect average, reducing the point to bag. (Not sure how well I explained that)