Post by: 9andaWiggle on September 03, 2008, 03:51:12 AM
Think about it. No handicap, no sandbaggers. Best man always wins. Isn't that what true competition is about?
Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?
No sir, if I want to beat Tiger, I either have to bash his knee caps in behind the pro shop with a tire iron, or I can spend 30 years and countless dollars on coaching and practice to get good enough to beat him fair and square (and even that's not a guarantee).
Why is bowling different? In little league, you don't give the "bad" team 10 free runs. Football doesn't spot anybody a turnover or two. Basketball doesn't start off with the weaker team shooting 20 free-throws. I could go on, but you get the picture.
What makes it OK to artificially inflate bowler's scores in the name of "leveling the playing field" when other sports do not do this? Or, how come other sports DO NOT handicap their teams to make a more "fair" competition?
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9~
Handicap... The Bowler''s Heroin.
Post by: icewall on September 03, 2008, 12:04:01 PM
Ive been bowling for as long as I could hold onto the ball and still be standing upright. yet I never asked for any help and always knew who the better bowlers were yet watched them always lose in team to the sloppy bowlers who somehow will have 1 amazing game just when they need it (talking about junior bowling back in the mid 90's)
I think that if you want to bowl in only handicap leagues then dont even ask about how to be accurate because that will only hurt you. just sandbag and then bowl great just when it counts.
id be just as happy to suddenly have handicap bowling gone and watch all the cry babies leave. and no im not that good of a bowler just tired of sandbagging... its the crutch of bowling
I think there should be different levels of bowling.
beginner leagues
intermediate
advanced
something to that effect as well as a mixed league where anyone can enter WITH or without handicap I guess depending on what the head of league wants or is popular.... which would then be handicap obviously.
this way no low average bowler would face a 200+ bowler but they could if they wanted to enter the handicap league.
and of course there could be a min and max average but im not going to get into that as im not sure where to cut people off.
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Visionary Test Staff 08/09
all visionary this year
blurple
ogre ss
glad.
glad. pearl
Edited on 9/3/2008 12:12 PM
Post by: scotts33 on September 03, 2008, 12:08:47 PM
quote:
Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?
9~,
I think you realize golf is also a sport that is handicapped....do you not? Same bagging situations exist.
I deal with it and don't really find it a problem in leagues. It's in tourney's where out and out baggers who use plastic to establish an average in a tough house (say 170) and then go out and bowl hdcp. tourney's with a 6 ball aresenal and can average 200 and up. That's where I think the real bagging problem excists.
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Scott
Post by: 1MechEng on September 03, 2008, 12:12:41 PM
The handicap system isn't designed to see who's best overall - the bowling average (or golf score avg.) will tell you that. It's designed to try to level the field to bring everyone to the same point for comparison purposes. This lets us see who is doing better relative to his/her mean abilities for any given game (or day).
Sandbagging is just the unfortunate infusion of human greed into an otherwise honest aspect of the game.
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
Edited on 9/3/2008 12:13 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on September 03, 2008, 12:15:57 PM
Post by: LordWalrus on September 03, 2008, 12:18:53 PM
Because if there was no handicap there'd be no bowling. The vast majority would quit because they'd have no chance against the best.
If you want a straight up challenge join a scratch league join the "pros". Don't join a handicap league and then complain about handicap. Don't ostracize the people who are making it possible for your local centers to stay in business.
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\/\/
Post by: Krumpy300 on September 03, 2008, 12:21:51 PM
quote:quote:
Why do we think a 120 avg. bowler should be able to compete with a 220 avg. bowler? Do I get to golf with Tiger Woods? If I did, would I expect to be given some way in which I could be determined the winner, even though my actual score was twice what his round would be?
9~,
I think you realize golf is also a sport that is handicapped....do you not? Same bagging situations exist.
I deal with it and don't really find it a problem in leagues. It's in tourney's where out and out baggers who use plastic to establish an average in a tough house (say 170) and then go out and bowl hdcp. tourney's with a 6 ball aresenal and can average 200 and up. That's where I think the real bagging problem excists.
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Scott
Agree 1000%. Most of our decent scratch leagues folded due to this.
Post by: J_Mac on September 03, 2008, 12:45:02 PM
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Post by: Pinbuster on September 03, 2008, 12:46:16 PM
Post by: charlest on September 03, 2008, 01:11:07 PM
quote:
That is because caps are a form of handicapping.
So how many 2 team scratch leagues are you going to have in any one house, where there's no cap, and only the highest averages can make up a team? So you'll have Two 4 or 5 person teams where everyone's average is 235 - 250. Whoppee! Have fun!
If you want each league to be scratch, for all intents and purposes, each league would have to have only those bowlers within roughly a 10 pin range, like 120 - 129, 130 - 139, 140 - 149. There are few enough leagues now and their numebr are declining all the time.
Of course one way to eliminate sandbaggers is to return to bowling, The Game, where there is little or no money to win. There'd be only the pride of bowling well and scoring well.
From what I can see, from the time I returned to bowling in 1995, roughly 80 - 85% of the men involved in any leagues are there for ONLY one reason - to win money. There is almost no pride or joy in just bowling for the sake of the sport any longer. The more money available as prizes and brackets and pots, the more the unscrupulous and unethical people will find ways to sandbag and other ways to cheat. Money is their one and only objective.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: Pinbuster on September 03, 2008, 01:18:49 PM
I bowl in a 10 team 5 person classic scratch with no cap.
There is also a 3 person scratch in town with over 30 teams. No cap.
The only capped scratch league in town folded after everyone got tired of raising the caps and baggers keeping under the cap.
Post by: nutsforbowling on September 03, 2008, 01:29:48 PM
What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM
Post by: idriveahonda on September 03, 2008, 01:30:56 PM
quote:
The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.
INCORRECT.
ANY golfer, amateur or junior, can recieve a cash prize of under $500 in cash, and any sort of prize for hole in one, longest drive, closest to the pin, under a verified amount. Cars and such are still under USGA stipulation as to whether they should be able to be accepted by amateurs.
Trust me, I've won money in tournaments, but have had to decline portions of it to meet college eligibility standards.
Post by: DP3 on September 03, 2008, 01:43:55 PM
quote:
There are no scratch leagues around here except for one PBA Experience league. If you can find me one in the Balt/DC area, let us know.
What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM
Wednesday Night Trios, Laurel Lanes in Laurel, MD. Cap: 635 for 3 man team.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
Post by: boomtown24 on September 03, 2008, 02:00:14 PM
quote:quote:
The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.
INCORRECT.
ANY golfer, amateur or junior, can receive a cash prize of under $500 in cash, and any sort of prize for hole in one, longest drive, closest to the pin, under a verified amount. Cars and such are still under USGA stipulation as to whether they should be able to be accepted by amateurs.
Trust me, I've won money in tournaments, but have had to decline portions of it to meet college eligibility standards.
I'm sorry Honda but you are incorrect, you CANNOT under any circumstances receive a CASH prize if you are an amateur. Boats, cars, et. are a one time occurrence and are permissible by todays USGA rules. I've competed in 100's of amateur golf tournaments around the country and know the rules inside and out. You can receive a gift certificates to the amount of $750 but that is it. Paramutuals and calcutta's are another story. Much goes on under the table but officially you are NOT ALLOWED to accept cash. Big difference between bowling and golf.
Post by: triggerman on September 03, 2008, 02:05:01 PM
LIFETIME AVERAGES
by keeping a lifetime average, it becomes increasingly harder for an individual to bag, include all tourneys and leagues for one yearbook score, you start next year off of that and continue to figure average for the total number of games bowled. with major tourneys IE nationals Hoinke, and the big money tourneys getting a heavier score in your lifetime average. Then and only then do you eliminate sandbagging
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www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Post by: trash heap on September 03, 2008, 02:18:52 PM
Your idea still has a loop hole. A true sandbagger doesn't always come in first or cash everytime. They pick and choose when they want to turn it on. Blow it in one tourney then score well in the other.
A bagger works at cheating the system.
I think your idea would work against those who blatantly bag but the true baggers are the ones that don't call attention to themselves.
Post by: louie on September 03, 2008, 02:19:42 PM
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Why does everyone laugh when I bowl?
louie
Post by: supernoodle on September 03, 2008, 02:31:26 PM
On the flip side if you get people sandbagging it takes away what little credibility our sport does have in the world of competitive sports.
As has been said before the introduction of prize money has made sandbagging more prevelent as happens in all walks of life when money is involved. Unless we have a system which does not make this profitable,then its always going to happen.
In regards to you Charlest,I used to bowl with a bunch of back stabbing hacks but after they "Dropped me" I went and decided to bowl with some bowlers in the 130-150 odd range whilst i'm on around 215. We may not win the league but I do not have to put up with those kind of shenanigans and come down to try to win,improve my game and enjoy myself. I could never sandbag as it would make any victory hollow and I would never want any of my achievements to feel that way.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Edited on 9/3/2008 2:32 PM
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on September 03, 2008, 02:36:54 PM
quote:
We may not win the league but I do not have to put up with those kind of shenanigans and come down to try to win,improve my game and enjoy myself. I could never sandbag as it would make any victory hollow and I would never want any of my achievements to feel that way.
I agree with this 100%. My team and the whole league wasn't that good as a whole, but I can't remember the last time I had so much fun and it showed when I went in with two honor scores and left with 5(300, 299, 290 unfortunately not all in the same night).
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I don't mean to be high speed/high rev, I was just born that way.
High game-300
High series-796
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www.youtube.com/Track8401
Post by: triggerman on September 03, 2008, 02:42:47 PM
quote:
trigger,
Your idea still has a loop hole. A true sandbagger doesn't always come in first or cash everytime. They pick and choose when they want to turn it on. Blow it in one tourney then score well in the other.
A bagger works at cheating the system.
I think your idea would work against those who blatantly bag but the true baggers are the ones that don't call attention to themselves.
so very true but they have to work harder at it, if say big money tourneys have to take the scores of all the cashers and make them 10 fold into your lifetime average, those "thinking" baggers will soon find their average up where it should be based upon tourney placings
the lifetime average takes the "I'll take this year and bag to get a good average for next year" out the window. one would have to become a lifetime bagger
I agree that people will find a way to cheat no matter what, but trying to tighten the noose is the way to go
9~ sorry to get off topic, I for one will be bowling a scratch league this year
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www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Post by: renoatpikeville on September 03, 2008, 02:45:56 PM
'Draft League'
ex.
20 team roster
captians are chosen--20 of them
round 1--team 1 to 20 pick in order.
round 2--team 20 to 1 in reverse order.
repeat...3 man team two rounds. 4 man team three rounds...so on.
No baggin' here.
Post by: DON DRAPER on September 03, 2008, 03:25:19 PM
Post by: another300 on September 03, 2008, 03:30:00 PM
One thing I have noticed that is fairly common in "true sandbaggers" is their league averages compared to tournament averages are 20-30 pins different. In leagues, they average 180's to 190's. But in Tournaments they are booking 220+. Just an example. There does seem to be quite a few pins difference between league and tournament bowling.
We do have the technology to capture ALL sanctioned games for individuals and enter them into a national database. Unfortunately it's not going to happen. It's all left up to the morals a person has and as we all know, some people have no morals!
Post by: Kid Jete on September 03, 2008, 03:30:11 PM
quote:
No sir, if I want to beat Tiger, I either have to bash his knee caps in behind the pro shop with a tire iron, or I can spend 30 years and countless dollars on coaching and practice to get good enough to beat him fair and square (and even that's not a guarantee).
You could spend as much time and money on instruction as humanly possible and still not even sniff Tiger, let alone anyone else on tour lol.
Post by: NtheDitch on September 03, 2008, 03:48:01 PM
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"Don"t leave it if you can't pick it up"
Post by: nutsforbowling on September 03, 2008, 04:17:33 PM
quote:quote:
There are no scratch leagues around here except for one PBA Experience league. If you can find me one in the Balt/DC area, let us know.
What our league does is restict you current average to last years average minus 10 pins. Example: Bowler bob books a 200 last year. This year after 9 games he has a 185 average. He would only get the handicap for a 190 until his average rises to 190. This put the stop to sandbagging in our league, and it is a lot more competitive now. I think only 3 people out of 120 ended up lower than 10 pins from the previous year.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Edited on 9/3/2008 1:34 PM
Wednesday Night Trios, Laurel Lanes in Laurel, MD. Cap: 635 for 3 man team.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
OK, but I bowl at Greenway on wednesday in Pioneer Men's. Thanks for the info though.
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Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Post by: another300 on September 03, 2008, 05:33:51 PM
quote:
Ok I'm a 180-190 average bowler only in my 2nd fall season and I bowl in two mens leagues that both use 90% of the floor averages for team handicap, individual has no bearing on anything except pots and brackets. The thing that has me most upset is not when I get beat by more handicap or by a scratch bowler.. what upsets me is when I get gripped at by a scratch bowler who I just beat in a bracket or pot with out my handicap. I have just as much right to bowl well and win as anyone. There is no solution so resume the rant about bowlers like me.
Bowlers like you? Back in the day it took bowlers 5-10 years to start averaging 180-190. Are we talking about bowlers like you? Let me ask you this, do you bowl in tournaments? If so, do you average 20,30,40 pins higher during tournament play? Since this is your 2nd year bowling, it's not about bowlers like you. This is about bowlers who have been bowling for years but only average in the high 180's to 190's during league play. But if someone was to get their averages from tournaments, they would have a 20-30 pin higher average.
Post by: supernoodle on September 03, 2008, 05:53:18 PM
quote:
years ago when i was a handicap bowler i always wanted to bowl scratch tournaments. i wanter to earn every pin i got.
You and me both! I used to look at the top guys bowling with Zero handicap and I used to think "I hope I'm that good some day" and every week I tried my best in order to reach that level. These days its all about how many bucks (Pounds for my British brethren) you can make,not aspiring to be the best you can at all times.
Some people just have no problem cheating in this way,maybe there should be v.severe punishments (such as lifetime ban) for anyone proven beyond reasonbale doubt to have sandbagged. I know it would be hard to prove but if one person gets found out and punished it may act as a deterent to others and if it stops a few people from doing it,surely its worth it.
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Edited on 9/3/2008 5:53 PM
Post by: tdub36tjt on September 03, 2008, 05:58:53 PM
A way to possibly control lesague bagging might be: Everyone has a "handicap average". To create this average, you use a generic number of games say 90 games for each person and their handicap average starts with 90 games at the average from the previous season. This will make it so a few good games or a few "bagged" games will hardly affect average, reducing the point to bag. (Not sure how well I explained that)
Post by: rvmark on September 03, 2008, 07:09:29 PM
Mark
Post by: NtheDitch on September 03, 2008, 07:24:07 PM
EDIT: Ok I guess I should have slowed down a bit but after bowling last night this is sticky issue with me. My biggest problem isn't bein fit in with the baggers its that too many scratch bowlers have a problem with tweener averages that bowl well.
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"Don"t leave it if you can't pick it up"
Edited on 9/3/2008 7:29 PM
Post by: idriveahonda on September 03, 2008, 09:12:28 PM
quote:quote:quote:
The big difference is that golfers cannot play for prize money unless they decare themselves professional.
INCORRECT.
ANY golfer, amateur or junior, can receive a cash prize of under $500 in cash, and any sort of prize for hole in one, longest drive, closest to the pin, under a verified amount. Cars and such are still under USGA stipulation as to whether they should be able to be accepted by amateurs.
Trust me, I've won money in tournaments, but have had to decline portions of it to meet college eligibility standards.
I'm sorry Honda but you are incorrect, you CANNOT under any circumstances receive a CASH prize if you are an amateur. Boats, cars, et. are a one time occurrence and are permissible by todays USGA rules. I've competed in 100's of amateur golf tournaments around the country and know the rules inside and out. You can receive a gift certificates to the amount of $750 but that is it. Paramutuals and calcutta's are another story. Much goes on under the table but officially you are NOT ALLOWED to accept cash. Big difference between bowling and golf.
My college coach has researched it many times, and you can accept cash prize as long as under $500 and no sort of sponsorship is correlated to the cash prize.
I understand the gift certificates, but I'm pretty sure (note this, pretty sure) the USGA increased it to $1000 this year didn't they?
Whether or not you or I are right, I was given permission and I take advantage of it. Considering I shot 65 (-7) at Kingsmill River Course in a amateur tournament...got me a ton of stuff lol.
Post by: JessN16 on September 03, 2008, 09:37:13 PM
Jess
Post by: Rileybowler on September 03, 2008, 09:42:22 PM
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Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 03, 2008, 09:42:56 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: notsohotshot on September 03, 2008, 09:57:10 PM
In TCBA all tourney games bowled in TCBA tourneys are kept and if your t avg is 15 pins higher than your tcba league avg then you add enough pins to bring it to within 15 pins. Same goes with all of your other sanctioned leagued leagued leagues.If those are 15 pins or higher than your TCBA avg then they rerate your avg up to within 15 pins of your highest league avg. Doesn't stop it but it slows it down as TCBA is the highest paying league anywhere in USA
Post by: Pinbuster on September 04, 2008, 07:13:23 AM
3-1. Playing for Prize Money
An amateur golfer must not play golf for prize money or its equivalent in a match, competition or exhibition.
Note: An amateur golfer may participate in an event where prize money or its equivalent is offered, provided that prior to participation he waives his right to accept prize money in that event.
(Conduct contrary to the purpose and spirit of the Rules - see Rule 7-2.)
(Policy on gambling - see Appendix.)
3-2. Prize Limits
a. General
An amateur golfer must not accept a prize (other than a symbolic prize) or prize voucher of retail value in excess of $750 or the equivalent, or such a lesser figure as may be decided by the USGA. This limit applies to the total prizes or prize vouchers received by an amateur golfer in any one competition or series of competitions.
Exception: A prize, including a cash prize, for a hole-in-one made while playing golf may exceed the above prize limit.
b. Exchanging Prizes
An amateur golfer must not exchange a prize or prize voucher for cash.
Exception: An amateur golfer may submit a prize voucher to a state or regional golf association and thereafter be reimbursed from the value of that voucher for expenses incurred in participating in a golf competition, provided the reimbursement of such expenses is permitted under Rule 4-2.
Note 1: The responsibility to prove the retail value of a particular prize rests with the Committee in charge of the competition.
Note 2: It is recommended that the total value of prizes in a gross competition, or each division of a handicap competition, should not exceed twice the prescribed limit in an 18-hole competition, three times in a 36-hole competition, five times in a 54-hole competition and six times in a 72-hole competition.
While I agree that Am's play for money all the time. The USGA does not condon it.
Post by: Jock on September 04, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
They use the last 12 months (not 1 year) which means each month one month leaves the 12 month period and another is taken into consideration. Also, once you have over 21 tournament games registered, only the tournament scores are taken into account. There are still big loopholes though.
Imagine when I get my 21 games in I'm at a 185 average, I therefore get handicap for 185. If I improve (to say a 200 ave) but I don't bowl any more tourneys, I still get my handicap for 185 and I can clean up in ANY handicap league (scratch leagues don't exist in France).
That's not too much of a problem over here though because you ain't going to bag just to win 30/40 € at the end of the league. It is just not worth it.
I agree that everyone should just bowl scratch but leagues would just die out. Who in their right mind is going to join a scratch league where there are bowlers with averages 30 pins higher?
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I've upped my average, so up yours!
Post by: mainzer on September 04, 2008, 11:27:14 AM
IMO If you average over 200 you should be bowling ONLY SCRATCH LEAGUES.
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MainzerPower
Post by: Pinbuster on September 04, 2008, 11:33:28 AM
You can average whatever you want and still bowl in handicap leagues. There are too many reasons a person might want to bowl in one.
I bowl in one so that I can bowl with my daughter.
But you forfeit most of your right to complain about the handicapping system.
Post by: Krakken on September 04, 2008, 01:25:18 PM
quote:
I like 9s point here.
IMO If you average over 200 you should be bowling ONLY SCRATCH LEAGUES.
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MainzerPower
I will say it again. My wife wants to bowl in a league with me. I average 225. Should she have to bowl in a scratch league with her 120 average? No.
Handicaps are there to try to level the playing field between all bowlers. Mixed leagues are for fun and recreation. I enjoy being able to bowl with my wife one night a week.
Stop that kind of thinking and you will really kill bowling.
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Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out