Author Topic: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals? (Read 23183 times)

Juggernaut · « **on:** March 17, 2016, 08:01:32 AM »

OK, lets put ourselves in the USBC's shoes.

Bowling manufacturers are more than well aquainted with the regulations concerning any bowling equipment they manufacture. They know the upper limits at which they are allowed to go, and are aware that nothing beyond that point is acceptable.

Pushing the upper limits is a manufacturing choice a private company makes.

Then, you get an "anonymous" package from someone. In this package are products from that private company that have previously been approved, but a note contained in the package leads you to believe that someone has found out that not all those previously approved products are being made within those accepted limits. This leads to you testing the products to either confirm the "allegation", or deny it.

After quite thorough testing, you find the "allegation" to have merit, and products have been found that are above the acceptable limits, at too high a percentage to simply ignore.

NOW WHAT?

Comparisons have been made to other situations, but many of those really don't work here at all. Take the speed limit one for instance.

If the speed limit is 60mph, and you are doing 61mph, you probably aren't getting ticketed, simply because there are lots of others going far further past the limit than you are.

BUT, what if EVERYONE ELSE is going 60mph or less? Then, you stand out as the lone person breaking the rules, and are far more likely to be picked out and ticketed, right?

Motiv broke the rules. I believe it was inadvertently, but that is also irrelevant as it doesn't matter why, or how, the rules were broken, only that they were.

USBC is a rule making, rule enforcing, governing body, who's job it is to ensure those rules are being followed, and enforce them when they are not.

So really, HONESTLY, what were their options? And, what would you have done if YOU were the sole entity in charge of making sure EVERYBODY follows ALL the rules to the letter?

Nails · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2016, 04:48:43 PM »

In the not to distant past when 16 pound equipment was the norm, balls would sometimes come in over weight at nationals. Even urethane will absorb oil when thrown over a long period of time. Your only choices were to not use the equipment or have the staff drill a weight hole to get the weight under 16 pounds. I believe they typically put a large hole right in the middle of your grip to keep it simple. They didn't care what it did to your reaction - it wasn't illegal, they made it legal. I agree with Gene here. The USBC's job is to make and enforce rules. It's unfortunate that the consumers are the ones being hurt until Motiv provides replacements, but they would lose what's left of their credibility if they let people continue to use non conforming equipment.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #47 on:** March 17, 2016, 04:57:59 PM »

I agree that USBC did what was right. Motiv was in the wrong.

Motive should replace all the balls with another ball of the bowlers choice from their lineup.

Plus if sold thru a proshop they should give some compensation to them for having to drill 2 balls and deal with the grief they will get.

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #48 on:** March 17, 2016, 07:06:59 PM »

Quote from: morpheus on March 17, 2016, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: Gene J Kanak on March 17, 2016, 01:42:12 PM
Good try, Morph, but, yes, unlike many, I listen to arguments from all sides and then make my own decision based upon the evidence provided in that case. I don't decide that I love (or in your case hate) someone or something and then approach every future situation with bias.

To be transparent, I'm a former USBC employee who was let go during the company's first budget-forced layoffs. That happened a little over a year and a half after the company said that I was the No. 1 PR prospect that they wanted to bring in, which convinced me to have my wife leave a respected teaching job and transplant our family 900 miles from home. I am and always will be bitter against USBC for that. So I ask you, who should have a bigger axe to grind with that organization, me, the one who lost his job and had to figure out what do with family 900 miles from home, or you, the guy who feels that his $18 annual contribution isn't being used to the fullest?

As I've said in our previous conversations, you clearly hate USBC, and you have that right, but that doesn't make you right when you bash them for everything they do. They've done some good things, and they've done some bad things. I give them credit when I feel it's due, and I criticize them when I feel it is warranted. Just because you're biased beyond reason doesn't mean that all of us are!

So what you're saying is there was no other option in this case that might have resulted in a better outcome for our members while still holding Motiv accountable?

Well, actually, I never said that. What I said was that I don't think that it was USBC's responsibility to make sure members weren't inconvenienced since USBC wasn't the one that caused said inconvenience. Basically, you're saying that they need to enforce the rules, but they need to do it in a way that doesn't put any bowlers out.

Could they have handled it differently? Of course they could, but do I think that they should've grandfathered those balls, no, I don't. To me, if you know a piece of equipment is illegal, you have to pull it because as much as it sucks for the bowlers with those balls, it's the right thing to do.

Ken De Beasto · « **Reply #49 on:** March 17, 2016, 08:42:01 PM »

No need to bring any solutions up only 1 solution needed to be done which is banning the ball...

REmarcaBOWL · « **Reply #50 on:** March 18, 2016, 09:33:32 AM »

Another interesting feat is that there are 5 more bowling balls with that core that are still approved/legal. It seems like only the original Jackal and Jackal Carnage was targetted and hit.

Predator Core Equipped:

Raptor P7
Raptor Attack
Raptor Talon
Sapphire Jackal (Japan)
Jackal Pro (Korea)

s_hemker · « **Reply #51 on:** March 18, 2016, 09:54:28 AM »

Quote from: REmarcaBOWL on March 18, 2016, 09:33:32 AM

Another interesting feat is that there are 5 more bowling balls with that core that are still approved/legal. It seems like only the original Jackal and Jackal Carnage was targetted and hit.

Predator Core Equipped:

Raptor P7
Raptor Attack
Raptor Talon
Sapphire Jackal (Japan)
Jackal Pro (Korea)

Not only this but a plethora of bowling balls with higher diff that are still legal. Yes, grandfathered in but still legal and nobody has a competitive advantage using them. If it was me, I would have hit Motiv with a heavy fine and forced them to stop production of them and that is it. Force them to financially be responsible for the mishap with the fine but at the same time not hurting the consumer by banning a ball that was bought with the USBC stamp of approval. Just poor judgement on the USBC end not realizing how this would affect the same people they are supposedly in place to look out for....the bowlers.

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #52 on:** March 18, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »

Quote from: s_hemker on March 18, 2016, 09:54:28 AM

Quote from: REmarcaBOWL on March 18, 2016, 09:33:32 AM
Another interesting feat is that there are 5 more bowling balls with that core that are still approved/legal. It seems like only the original Jackal and Jackal Carnage was targetted and hit.

Predator Core Equipped:

Raptor P7
Raptor Attack
Raptor Talon
Sapphire Jackal (Japan)
Jackal Pro (Korea)

Not only this but a plethora of bowling balls with higher diff that are still legal. Yes, grandfathered in but still legal and nobody has a competitive advantage using them. If it was me, I would have hit Motiv with a heavy fine and forced them to stop production of them and that is it. Force them to financially be responsible for the mishap with the fine but at the same time not hurting the consumer by banning a ball that was bought with the USBC stamp of approval. Just poor judgement on the USBC end not realizing how this would affect the same people they are supposedly in place to look out for....the bowlers.

Okay, so USBC needs to enforce the rules...but not if it means inconveniencing bowlers. Is that how it's supposed to work? Does the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB discount tickets or let fans in for free if they attend a game where a superstar player is sitting out due to a suspension? I mean, it's not the fans' fault that the player did something to warrant having to sit out.

Why do we make everything more complicated than it needs to be? Rules are rules. I don't know the specifics of the grandfathering rule, so I can't speak intelligently on that aspect. Other than that, all manufacturers know the specs, and they've known them for quite some time. Motiv either intentionally tried to do something it knew it shouldn't, or it had bad quality control. Either way, their balls were illegal, and they needed to be pulled.

In all honestly, I'd have been more disappointed in USBC if it HAD allowed those balls to stay in play because I would see that as a shameless attempt to win favor with bowlers instead of sticking to their guns and doing what they're supposed to do, uphold the rules! In my world, USBC took the more difficult option, the one that was give people a reason (not that many around here need one) to make USBC look like the bad guy instead of placing blame where it belongs, on Motiv!

s_hemker · « **Reply #53 on:** March 18, 2016, 10:39:29 AM »

However "Gene" please enlighten me and tell me where I said Motiv was not at fault? They are 100% at fault either with a quality control oversight or just being TOO CLOSE to the limit. I think they deserve to get a heavy fine but it is also hurting THE CONSUMERS. If USBC fined Motiv heavily (something equal to what this will cost them anyway) they get their point across, hurt Motiv, and NOT HURT THE CONSUMER! Balls that have higher diffs than these Jackals are legal. Yes I understand rules were broken I get that but what you are not understanding is that if USBC did what I stated there is only one person who is not hurt in this whole thing THE CONSUMER. Motiv hurt financially, Motiv stops production on Jackals, USBC no longer looks like a bad guy, and John Doe with his Jackal as his only ball can still go throw it WITHOUT A COMPETETIVE ADVANTAGE. This is not cork in a bat, this is not steroids, the diff of a ball goes up considerably when drilled, there is no competitive advantage to these balls so there is one group of people that is being hurt by this that shouldn't THE CONSUMER.

Say it with me Gene "The Consumer"!

s_hemker · « **Reply #54 on:** March 18, 2016, 10:48:32 AM »

Quote from: Gene J Kanak on March 18, 2016, 10:25:33 AM

Quote from: s_hemker on March 18, 2016, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: REmarcaBOWL on March 18, 2016, 09:33:32 AM
Another interesting feat is that there are 5 more bowling balls with that core that are still approved/legal. It seems like only the original Jackal and Jackal Carnage was targetted and hit.

Predator Core Equipped:

Raptor P7
Raptor Attack
Raptor Talon
Sapphire Jackal (Japan)
Jackal Pro (Korea)

Not only this but a plethora of bowling balls with higher diff that are still legal. Yes, grandfathered in but still legal and nobody has a competitive advantage using them. If it was me, I would have hit Motiv with a heavy fine and forced them to stop production of them and that is it. Force them to financially be responsible for the mishap with the fine but at the same time not hurting the consumer by banning a ball that was bought with the USBC stamp of approval. Just poor judgement on the USBC end not realizing how this would affect the same people they are supposedly in place to look out for....the bowlers.

Okay, so USBC needs to enforce the rules...but not if it means inconveniencing bowlers. Is that how it's supposed to work? Does the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB discount tickets or let fans in for free if they attend a game where a superstar player is sitting out due to a suspension? I mean, it's not the fans' fault that the player did something to warrant having to sit out.

Why do we make everything more complicated than it needs to be? Rules are rules. I don't know the specifics of the grandfathering rule, so I can't speak intelligently on that aspect. Other than that, all manufacturers know the specs, and they've known them for quite some time. Motiv either intentionally tried to do something it knew it shouldn't, or it had bad quality control. Either way, their balls were illegal, and they needed to be pulled.

In all honestly, I'd have been more disappointed in USBC if it HAD allowed those balls to stay in play because I would see that as a shameless attempt to win favor with bowlers instead of sticking to their guns and doing what they're supposed to do, uphold the rules! In my world, USBC took the more difficult option, the one that was give people a reason (not that many around here need one) to make USBC look like the bad guy instead of placing blame where it belongs, on Motiv!

Also, what does MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA have to do with this in any way? You using that as an argument makes ZERO sense. If you want to use that as an example use a better one like if a MLB game gets postponed YES THEY DO GIVE FREE TICKETS.

I'm not here to argue, just stating MY opinion. I disagree with every single one of yours so let's just leave it at that

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #55 on:** March 18, 2016, 10:55:56 AM »

Why did you choose to put quotation marks around my name? Are you implying that I'm not actually Gene? Strange.

But back on topic, I didn't say that YOU said Motiv was at fault. I'm saying that Motiv is at fault and should be the ones responsible for mitigating the inconvenience to the bowlers. USBC didn't cause this problem, so they shouldn't be held responsible for making sure that bowlers aren't put out by it. To me, that's Motiv's job.

USBC enforces rules. Rules were broken, so they needed to act. They did act, and now people are saying that they acted inappropriately because CONSUMERS were inconvenienced. When attempting to rebut my example from other sports, you mentioned corked bats and steroids. Those are not the only reasons why players are suspended from games. Players are suspended for drinking and driving, domestic issues, etc. etc. Again, if I pay $50 to watch my favorite team play, and their best player misses that game because of a DUI, I'm missing out as the CONSUMER. They're punishing me even though I did nothing wrong, right? Should the league just fine that player or push the suspension to another time so that I'm not screwed over as the CONSUMER?

Getting back to the issue at hand, I know a fair amount about equipment as well, so I am well aware of the fact that there was/is no discernible advantage given to bowlers who were using those balls. In my world, that's not the point. If the rules say that that ball is illegal, that ball shouldn't be used, period. I'd say that even if I was one of the bowlers who had those balls in the bag. I'm not telling you that I'd like it, but I'd agree that that's what needed to happen. The ones who would've felt my wrath in that case would've been Motiv!

Again, get it through your head that I understand that USBC could have taken the action you suggested, but just because that's what you and SOME (certainly not all) others feel they should've done, that does not automatically make you right. Obviously, before you point it out, the fact that I agree with USBC's actions here doesn't automatically make me right.

That's what debate and discussion are all about. I couldn't care less whether you or anyone else around here agrees with me on this. I have my opinions, and I'll share them. You have your opinions, and you're free to share those. If you don't like what I post, put me on your ignore list, but if you think you're going to make me feel bad about myself by attempting to make it seem like you're smarter than I am, you're wasting your time. I don't crave validation from you or anyone else.

s_hemker · « **Reply #56 on:** March 18, 2016, 11:06:48 AM »

Like I said not arguing "Gene" (I put quotations because it's the internet, who knows real names it's not important) not exactly necessary I know.

I just state that they should have acted differently. It's funny you say USBC isn't in it for the best interest of the bowler when in fact that is what they are supposed to be doing...looking out for the bowler (CONSUMER).

We just need to accept the fact that the USBC is a governing body that was not elected that will do whatever they want because they can. We (as consumers) will have to just sit back and do exactly as they say. Which is why people don't agree with the USBC in this matter and put some of the blame on them.

s_hemker · « **Reply #57 on:** March 18, 2016, 11:12:05 AM »

I mentioned corked bats and steroids not as a SUSPENSION. I mentioned corked bats and steroids as a form of cheating. Your argument makes no sense with sporting events. This situation compared to professional sporting events is more like this. You buy the tickets because of your favorite player or team whatever, your favorite player is not playing so now your tickets are illegal. That is this situation in relation to professional sports.

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #58 on:** March 18, 2016, 11:13:17 AM »

Thanks for the explanation on the name thing. lol

I didn't say that USBC isn't in it for the best interest of the bowler. I said that they should only take that into account when remedying a mistake of their own, not one caused by a manufacturer.

I understand your view of how USBC operates, but as someone who worked on the inside for a while, I can tell you from experience that that's not the way they look at it (doing whatever they want without caring what bowlers think). In fact, I think they sometimes pay too close attention to what bowlers think, and that causes them to fear taking action because of the potential blowback.

In any case, it's clear we'll never see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. There are some people who agree with me, and I know that there are plenty who will agree with you. That's what makes life great; we get to make up our own minds.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #59 on:** March 18, 2016, 11:21:59 AM »

Think of the ~~children~~ CONSUMER!

ITZPS · « **Reply #60 on:** March 18, 2016, 12:15:32 PM »

USBC should have notified Motiv the very instant they started getting information so Motiv could have corrected it and then we wouldn't have had this issue. USBC has fallen out of favor (if it ever was in favor), and I think this just amounted to a statement of "hey look at us, we're doing something!" ANYONE who thinks Motiv was knowingly producing illegal balls needs to exit the conversation, that definitely wasn't happening. Also, anyone that thinks that a ball with a pre-drilled diff of .061 is unfairly superior to a ball with a pre-drilled diff of .058 needs to spend more time reading and learning. Just because something can be more beneficial when it's in the right hands on the right condition used the right way doesn't mean much to the average consumer. I continue to be as unworried about it as I would be if someone brought an illegal driver to a par 3 course.

Author Topic: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals? (Read 23183 times)

Juggernaut

If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Nails

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Pinbuster

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Gene J Kanak

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Ken De Beasto

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

REmarcaBOWL

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

s_hemker

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Gene J Kanak

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

s_hemker

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

s_hemker

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Gene J Kanak

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

s_hemker

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

s_hemker

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Gene J Kanak

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

Good Times Good Times

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?

ITZPS

Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?