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Author Topic: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?  (Read 23178 times)

Juggernaut

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 OK, lets put ourselves in the USBC's shoes. 

 Bowling manufacturers are more than well aquainted with the regulations concerning any bowling equipment they manufacture. They know the upper limits at which they are allowed to go, and are aware that nothing beyond that point is acceptable.

 Pushing the upper limits is a manufacturing choice a private company makes.


 Then, you get an "anonymous" package from someone. In this package are products from that private company that have previously been approved, but a note contained in the package leads you to believe that someone has found out that not all those previously approved products are being made within those accepted limits. This leads to you testing the products to either confirm the "allegation", or deny it.

 After quite thorough testing, you find the "allegation" to have merit, and products have been found that are above the acceptable limits, at too high a percentage to simply ignore.

 NOW WHAT?


 Comparisons have been made to other situations, but many of those really don't work here at all. Take the speed limit one for instance.

 If the speed limit is 60mph, and you are doing 61mph, you probably aren't getting ticketed, simply because there are lots of others going far further past the limit than you are.

 BUT, what if EVERYONE ELSE is going 60mph or less? Then, you stand out as the lone person breaking the rules, and are far more likely to be picked out and ticketed, right?


 Motiv broke the rules. I believe it was inadvertently, but that is also irrelevant as it doesn't matter why, or how, the rules were broken, only that they were.

 USBC is a rule making, rule enforcing, governing body, who's job it is to ensure those rules are being followed, and enforce them when they are not.

 So really, HONESTLY, what were their options? And, what would you have done if YOU were the sole entity in charge of making sure EVERYBODY follows ALL the rules to the letter?
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tommyboy74

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2016, 04:44:59 PM »
Here is what should have happened.  Motiv should have been penalized and part of the penalty should included a requirement to replace the balls at issue.  In addition the impacted balls should be grandfathered for a short period of time so as to avoid undue hardship on bowlers. 

playing devils advocate for why I don't think a temporary grandfathering would work.

Say someone lost a close tournament to a winner throwing one or both of these now banned balls within the grandfather period?  sure the winner ultimately made more shots, but couldn't the runner up claim that he lost due to balls that didn't meet spec?

I think this is the reasoning that a banning needed to occur now.  if USBC nations has started with the balls being legal, I would have strongly considered a nationals only grandfathering.  however, not sure how I personally would come down on that.


as to the topic in question:  what would I do if made King and was in the position of the USB?

I would test the balls, I would notify Motiv of the investigation.  and given the results backed up the claims of illegal balls I would have banned the balls now found to be illegal.

sure there was some outside "help" or 'whistle blower", but I think USBC did their jobs in this case

Ideally, they should have been banned before Nationals even started.  I could see concerns coming up where someone could use a Jackal early in the tournament but then have it banned part of the way through.  Also any honor scores shot in the early part of the tournament will be looked down upon because of the timing. 

It's a total lose-lose situation.  People who have either of the Jackals will be pissed at Motiv because they can't use those balls anymore.  Also, people will be pissed at the USBC because of the timing of the ban.

I hope that the USBC will give Motiv as much information as possible so this way everything can be reviewed and used to improve overall manufacturing.  Stuff like how the test was performed, which serial numbers were used, things like that.  If the USBC does not provide that info, then it's suspect. 

Motiv may also need to change the diffs to not exceed .058-.059 going forward so this way they have a bit more tolerance should anything like this ever happen again.
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WOWZERS

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2016, 05:06:35 PM »
Spot On Tommy Boy!

charlest

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2016, 07:36:25 PM »
Just an FYI -

In a small local county tournament today (equivalent of the Nationals :team, singles, doubles), they had 2 printouts. One of the Jackal and one of the Carnage, saying that these balls have recently been removed from the USBC approval list and anyone using them would be immediately disqualified.


"None are so blind as those who will not see."

avabob

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2016, 11:07:50 AM »
Because of the point in time when this was discovered there should have been a grace period until the end of the 2016 season.  Nobody can demonstrate any advantage gained by the balls that were out of compliance by a miniscule amount. Motiv should be punished and balls should be outlawed beginning for the fall season. 

AlBundy33

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2016, 11:23:28 AM »
Because of the point in time when this was discovered there should have been a grace period until the end of the 2016 season.  Nobody can demonstrate any advantage gained by the balls that were out of compliance by a miniscule amount. Motiv should be punished and balls should be outlawed beginning for the fall season. 

Exactly. But try explaining that to the freedom fighters that defend the governing body to the death, no matter how bad it is.

As I said, you have tournaments that take place over a period of months where those balls have already been used. If common sense was used, they would wait until nationals was over to disallow the two balls.

But common sense is a foreign object to the country club that is known as the governing body.
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s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2016, 11:42:44 AM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?

Ken De Beasto

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2016, 01:01:34 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2016, 01:24:26 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

Was my post hard to understand? Please tell me what a coverstock has to do with the inner core specifications? What we have at hand is 2 balls that got banned yet the entire Raptor series as well as the two overseas jackald are approved for use with the exact same cores inside of them. That's why I am not sure why they have been banned. Don't tell me "they are illegal blah blah blah" that's fine I understand they are out of "compliance" but the USBC revoking approval on 2 balls yet they let all the other ones out there with the same .060 diff core loaded up in them stay on the approved list. They didn't test them and can't I know that. Just proves the USBC made a wrong choice in doing anything but simply stopping production and fining Motiv the cost it would be to replace them.

morpheus

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2016, 01:36:50 PM »
It is definitely confusing when a core has been approved for use over the span of at least 4 years and 6 different balls, yet only 2 of those releases are banned. Hopefully the USBC will explain their logic and provide some clarity around the field testing process at some point.
#AFutureForMembership #WhoDoesUSBCWorkFor

AlBundy33

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2016, 01:42:18 PM »
It is definitely confusing when a core has been approved for use over the span of at least 4 years and 6 different balls, yet only 2 of those releases are banned. Hopefully the USBC will explain their logic and provide some clarity around the field testing process at some point.

Good luck with that. You would have an easier time trying to find Jimmy Hoffa's body than getting an answer from the select country club.
Instead of "A Future For The Sport", it really should be "A Sport Without A Future"

Ken De Beasto

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2016, 01:56:02 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

Was my post hard to understand? Please tell me what a coverstock has to do with the inner core specifications? What we have at hand is 2 balls that got banned yet the entire Raptor series as well as the two overseas jackald are approved for use with the exact same cores inside of them. That's why I am not sure why they have been banned. Don't tell me "they are illegal blah blah blah" that's fine I understand they are out of "compliance" but the USBC revoking approval on 2 balls yet they let all the other ones out there with the same .060 diff core loaded up in them stay on the approved list. They didn't test them and can't I know that. Just proves the USBC made a wrong choice in doing anything but simply stopping production and fining Motiv the cost it would be to replace them.

So your saying the two current jackals should not be banned because the other two jackal haven't been tested

Strapper_Squared

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2016, 02:15:30 PM »
Bought a share of Motivation, declared their equipment illegal, then begin selling everything at a stupid premium on eBay claiming it's outlawed and banned...

Oh wait, the selling part is already being done.
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s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2016, 02:33:38 PM »
I'm not sure why either ball is banned to begin with. Yes, rules I get it I understand that but at the same time tell me why Jackal and Jackal Carnage are banned for use in USBC sanctioned events yet someone can walk in with a Jackal Pro or Jackal Sapphire (or any other Raptor series utilizing the same core) but they are allowed to use those? I get these balls are off spec and all but the Sapphire and Pro are the exact same balls yet they can be freely used?
What do you mean you don't get why those balls got banned.... And how are all the jackals the same ball they have different cover stocks...

Was my post hard to understand? Please tell me what a coverstock has to do with the inner core specifications? What we have at hand is 2 balls that got banned yet the entire Raptor series as well as the two overseas jackald are approved for use with the exact same cores inside of them. That's why I am not sure why they have been banned. Don't tell me "they are illegal blah blah blah" that's fine I understand they are out of "compliance" but the USBC revoking approval on 2 balls yet they let all the other ones out there with the same .060 diff core loaded up in them stay on the approved list. They didn't test them and can't I know that. Just proves the USBC made a wrong choice in doing anything but simply stopping production and fining Motiv the cost it would be to replace them.

So your saying the two current jackals should not be banned because the other two jackal haven't been tested

You sir, clearly don't comprehend anything. Good day.

bambalam

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2016, 02:57:30 PM »
I don't know that we know if the overseas Jackals have been tested or not.

If, as it seems, there was a shift in the core making process at Motiv that caused the balls to go over the spec limit, it could be just a matter of timing. The overseas releases could have been shorter runs made prior to the shift and the domestic balls made after the shift. If that is the case, the overseas could very well be legal.

I don't think there is any arguing that up to a date the Jackals were legal and then they crossed a threshold. They are not the same ball as was approved. The Carnage probably the same, only a larger percentage of the balls in circulation are probably over the limit. But I don't see what choice the USBC had. They aren't taking the core off the approved list as such. Just specific balls found to violate the rules.

s_hemker

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Re: If you were the USBC, what would you have done with the Jackals?
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2016, 03:07:40 PM »
I don't know that we know if the overseas Jackals have been tested or not.

If, as it seems, there was a shift in the core making process at Motiv that caused the balls to go over the spec limit, it could be just a matter of timing. The overseas releases could have been shorter runs made prior to the shift and the domestic balls made after the shift. If that is the case, the overseas could very well be legal.

I don't think there is any arguing that up to a date the Jackals were legal and then they crossed a threshold. They are not the same ball as was approved. The Carnage probably the same, only a larger percentage of the balls in circulation are probably over the limit. But I don't see what choice the USBC had. They aren't taking the core off the approved list as such. Just specific balls found to violate the rules.

It has been confirmed (direct from the horses mouth) USBC did NOT test the overseas Jackals as they did not have enough access to them for testing. If you don't understand how it makes zero sense to completely ban a bowling ball when the exact same ball is out there, although very limited quantities, and remains approved then I feel sorry for you.