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Author Topic: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging  (Read 10085 times)

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Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« on: July 15, 2013, 11:21:22 AM »
Found an interesting bowling topic that we all deal with and know is going on all the time. Its so sad to admit it. - Why Do Bowling Leagues Promote SandBagging and Dumping ?
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dmonroe814

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 11:49:02 AM »
Interesting concept.  Think it will work?

"There is a movement that eliminates the whole idea of handicap, however, I would to see movement toward the progressive league concept. There are too many bowlers who will not bowl scratch for many reasons. Progressive leagues have you bowling against the entire league on a per game basis. If there are 12 teams in the league, and your team finishes game 1 with the lowest score, your team gets zero points. The team with the highest score gets 11 points that game. It would be hard for me to believe that sandbagging would be worth it in this type of league."
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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 12:07:41 PM »
That new idea sounds like a pretty interesting concept. That concept will work well for people that are honest bowlers that want to win and bowl great. The bad part of it is all the scam artist and dumpers will just not join the league because it will not benefit them. They want to find a league that will let them abuse the system to make some money. Bank Robbers dont go into banks with 20 armed guards lol they find the slacking bank and make the hit, same as they choose bowling leagues.
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blesseddad

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 03:34:42 PM »
Quote from: dmonroe814 on July 15, 2013, 11:49:02 AM
Interesting concept.  Think it will work?

"There is a movement that eliminates the whole idea of handicap, however, I would to see movement toward the progressive league concept. There are too many bowlers who will not bowl scratch for many reasons. Progressive leagues have you bowling against the entire league on a per game basis. If there are 12 teams in the league, and your team finishes game 1 with the lowest score, your team gets zero points. The team with the highest score gets 11 points that game. It would be hard for me to believe that sandbagging would be worth it in this type of league."

Since I am the one that wrote the above, let me add to it:

I agree that the baggers will go away and find other easier targets, but at least this is one way to get them out of YOUR league. This is a good thing. Let the other leagues figure it out. If they make the mistake of joining a progressive league and get their heads handed to them, perhaps it may make them rethink their plans.
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cisco1869

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 03:51:34 PM »
Not to get too far off topic, but honestly how many sandbaggers are really out there as a percentage of league bowlers?
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Pinbuster

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »
Most baggers I know set low averages for tournaments not to win league money.

They do exist but I don't seem to bowl with many. But most of my leagues are scratch or low percentage handicap leagues.
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J_Mac

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 04:32:08 PM »
Quote from: cisco1869 on July 15, 2013, 03:51:34 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but honestly how many sandbaggers are really out there as a percentage of league bowlers?

You really think they are going to line up and be counted?
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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 09:24:45 AM »
Yeah most people wont be lining up, But i am trying to figure out why they have a league meeting and vote for a 5 pin or 10 pin drop in the league prior to the league starting if it wasn't something that should be occurring. I can say in my league 2 people out of the entire league voted for 10 pin drop, which lost and the rest voted for a 5 pin drop.
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cisco1869

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 10:49:54 AM »
Quote from: J_Mac on July 15, 2013, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: cisco1869 on July 15, 2013, 03:51:34 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but honestly how many sandbaggers are really out there as a percentage of league bowlers?

You really think they are going to line up and be counted?

No, but I see people complaining about it all of the time like it is a plague of locusts on the sport.  You would think they could come up with at least a rough estimate of the number of people doing it.  Is it really a "worldwide" problem like suggested in the original link?
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dmonroe814

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 12:11:34 PM »
I just got back from the USBC Seniors.  Not all lower than they should be averages are the fault of the bowlers.  I was high scratch in my age division but with no handicap I finished 11th with handicap.  I talked with the bowlers that finished in the top 6.  Most of them bowled in older houses that had poor maintenance and little improvments.  Are they sandbaggers because their houses are tough scoring?  Golf has an additional handicap method that rates each course and the handicaps are adjusted based on the difficulty of the course.  This would help with the handicaping but I believe it would be too difficult and time consuming to implement.
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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 12:25:58 PM »
Not with modern database systems it wouldn't.

USBC has the information needed to calculate the average across the league, the house, association, State or any other entity to rank a given bowler against their peers. It could also take into account bowlers who competed in the Open and their performance against the other bowlers on their squad, day, month etc. This is not rocket science, just data processing.

Any competent database programmer could write the SQL in a matter of minutes that would give a more accurate reflection of a bowlers skill.

Quote from: dmonroe814 on July 16, 2013, 12:11:34 PM
I just got back from the USBC Seniors.  Not all lower than they should be averages are the fault of the bowlers.  I was high scratch in my age division but with no handicap I finished 11th with handicap.  I talked with the bowlers that finished in the top 6.  Most of them bowled in older houses that had poor maintenance and little improvments.  Are they sandbaggers because their houses are tough scoring?  Golf has an additional handicap method that rates each course and the handicaps are adjusted based on the difficulty of the course.  This would help with the handicaping but I believe it would be too difficult and time consuming to implement.
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txbowler

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 03:17:23 PM »
Here's the problem to solve...

Golf courses cannot be modified in regards to length, slope, etc easily so they can be rated and a golfer can expect that the course they play will be close to what the rating states.

Lanes are another story.  On lane rating day, I run a different pattern than I do for leagues.  On Monday seniors day, I run a different pattern than on Wed Classic League.  On the Sunday's couple league, I don't re-run the lanes from Sunday noon so they have had open play on them all day.

How is that house supposed to be rated for the 3 bowlers that bowl in 1 league in that house on different nights.  Surely you don't suggest that the local association is going to pull tapes for the 3 different shots and provide 3 different ratings?

From what some posters say here, some associations barely make sure the lanes are 60 feet and have 10 pins for certification.

Also, how about the house that I bowl in that was built in the 50's in a small TX town that is a metal building with no central heat.  In the winter, the lane machine and oil is kept out where the temps fall into the 50's in the building at night.  During the winter, the oil levels on the lane change dramatically, and averages fall like crazy.  Is USBC supposed to know this and adjust the rating accordingly?

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milorafferty

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 03:41:37 PM »
It doesn't have to use tapes though. Rate the bowler against the field, i.e. the other bowlers on the same condition. Same house, same league etc. Same with tournaments, rate the bowler against the tournament field. When you average these percentiles against the national average, this will result in a composite average that will eventually reflect the true skill level of that bowler.

Again, this isn't rocket science, just basic statistical methods used everyday. And USBC already has the information needed in their database(s).

Quote from: txbowler on July 16, 2013, 03:17:23 PM
Here's the problem to solve...

Golf courses cannot be modified in regards to length, slope, etc easily so they can be rated and a golfer can expect that the course they play will be close to what the rating states.

Lanes are another story.  On lane rating day, I run a different pattern than I do for leagues.  On Monday seniors day, I run a different pattern than on Wed Classic League.  On the Sunday's couple league, I don't re-run the lanes from Sunday noon so they have had open play on them all day.

How is that house supposed to be rated for the 3 bowlers that bowl in 1 league in that house on different nights.  Surely you don't suggest that the local association is going to pull tapes for the 3 different shots and provide 3 different ratings?

From what some posters say here, some associations barely make sure the lanes are 60 feet and have 10 pins for certification.

Also, how about the house that I bowl in that was built in the 50's in a small TX town that is a metal building with no central heat.  In the winter, the lane machine and oil is kept out where the temps fall into the 50's in the building at night.  During the winter, the oil levels on the lane change dramatically, and averages fall like crazy.  Is USBC supposed to know this and adjust the rating accordingly?


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ithinkican

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 03:54:09 PM »
There is a simple solution to this issue. On the same time at the same time, have two leagues. Have a scratch league in the same handicap league. THEn the sandbaggers have no choice but to bowl good all of the time in the handicap league because if they dont they will start losing in the scratch league. PROBLEM SOLVED.
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Metal_rules

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Re: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 04:45:55 PM »
I hate a sandbagger. I try to do my best always, because some nites are forgetable.  Another way to discourage bagging is have your point system set up to receive 1 point for making your average. So if you make your ave. all 3 games that's 3 extra points. So if your entire team make all points, that's a nice bonus. That may help unless they don't care about winning the league.
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