Author Topic: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging (Read 10168 times)

icon · « **on:** July 15, 2013, 11:21:22 AM »

Found an interesting bowling topic that we all deal with and know is going on all the time. Its so sad to admit it. - Why Do Bowling Leagues Promote SandBagging and Dumping ?

littlegreycat · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2013, 05:18:50 AM »

I really believe bowling should be based on the competitors you face like tennis. your league is full of tourney bowlers and you average the same as them you are rated higher even though you don't do tourneys. a bowler could be a 190 level 5. You bowl with lousy bowlers with no tourneys among them you can be a 230 level 1. In tennis you can lose 4/6 3 sets and still get rerated higher because you did well against a competitor of high ability/level. It would clear up how a 180 bowler cleans up a 230 guy. By reporting tourney results you could be rated a better or worse bowler cause of an event averages. Sucking in tourneys with a 230 would lower you whole areas rating. You'd still be at that average but it would say you play in bumper leagues.

icon · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2013, 07:51:39 AM »

That idea doesnt sound bad about making your points. I can tell you from experience i have been in my league and its position week and a bowler on my team shows up and tells me he cant bowl over 580 cause his average will go up. I stood there in shock like are you serious we need to win this week. He said " if my average goes up over 200 i wont be able to bowl on teams i want to next season". You can see how that position week went for us.

blesseddad · « **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2013, 09:59:20 AM »

That might be why there is a reverence for the Peterson Point/Match point type formats.

In the Peterson, you are getting a point for every block of pins (25 or 50 pins, commonly) and whether that block of pins is scratch or handicap, you are only being rewarded for your results.

Adding the extra for wins and losses in a Match Point hybrid format on top of your performance blocks make you (1) bowl well to get the majority of your points and (2) bowl well enough to beat your opponent and get those bonus points.

txbowler · « **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2013, 11:06:47 AM »

true sandbaggers do not care about league money. They usually hide in mixed leagues that pay small prize funds in the first place.

sandbaggers are focused on tournaments.

The will bowl their mixed league where they intentionally average 20-40 pins under their true ability and then enter the hdcp tournaments and clean up making a couple thousand per tourney.

No league format you come up with will stop them because they simply bowl below their ability. I have been in leagues where known sandbaggers bowl. They leave a 10 pin, they shoot at the 7. They intentionally try to miss the head pin and leave the fence row (7 count) on every shot. See by doing that, they are still working on their game. Instead of making the 1-3 the pocket their strike pocket. They are making the 3-6 "their" pocket. If they hit the 3-6, they struck in their mind. And their scores are of course lower because they don't string strikes. It is practicing in league for score.

The only way to possibly end this is for USBC to begin tracking all tournament averages for sanctioned bowlers. Then each tournament can decide if they want to consider usage of that average.

If a bowler has a book average of 178, and a tournament average of 210, might raise a few flags.

bowl400 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2013, 11:13:00 AM »

Quote from: txbowler on July 17, 2013, 11:06:47 AM

true sandbaggers do not care about league money. They usually hide in mixed leagues that pay small prize funds in the first place.

sandbaggers are focused on tournaments.

The will bowl their mixed league where they intentionally average 20-40 pins under their true ability and then enter the hdcp tournaments and clean up making a couple thousand per tourney.

No league format you come up with will stop them because they simply bowl below their ability. I have been in leagues where known sandbaggers bowl. They leave a 10 pin, they shoot at the 7. They intentionally try to miss the head pin and leave the fence row (7 count) on every shot. See by doing that, they are still working on their game. Instead of making the 1-3 the pocket their strike pocket. They are making the 3-6 "their" pocket. If they hit the 3-6, they struck in their mind. And their scores are of course lower because they don't string strikes. It is practicing in league for score.

The only way to possibly end this is for USBC to begin tracking all tournament averages for sanctioned bowlers. Then each tournament can decide if they want to consider usage of that average.

If a bowler has a book average of 178, and a tournament average of 210, might raise a few flags.

They also clean up in handicap brackets. Always cracks me up when someone with a 140 something average loads up with max handicapped brackets. Think they know something that the rest of us don't

icon · « **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2013, 09:35:14 PM »

i had a sub show up in our league come with a so-called 176 avg and bowl 726 scratch like he lived at the bowling alley. After that 1 week we lost all 3 games and only won 2 points total. Oddly this mystery sub never returned to the league.

trash heap · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2013, 11:53:47 AM »

You will never get rid of the Sandbagger. It doesn't matter what point scheme you put in, a true sandbagger will find away around it.

trash heap · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2013, 11:55:11 AM »

to add,

Big Money League and THS = A lot of Sandbaggers.

blesseddad · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:21:54 PM »

Quote from: trash heap on July 18, 2013, 11:55:11 AM

to add,

Big Money League and THS = A lot of Sandbaggers.

Sadly, this is a huge +1

blesseddad · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »

Quote from: blesseddad on July 18, 2013, 12:21:54 PM

Quote from: trash heap on July 18, 2013, 11:55:11 AM
to add,

Big Money League and THS = A lot of Sandbaggers.

Sadly, this is a huge +1

Even worse than this, we all talk about how bowling is shrinking and centers closing all around us with no end in sight, and then we get on a thread like this one and try to eliminate those who use the rules against us to take our money. Funny how that works...

trash heap · « **Reply #26 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:59:22 PM »

About the only way I know that might curve the sandbagging down is do something like golf's handicap system. You take your top games (not all of your games). Somehow golf has a system in place when you reach a level its harder to raise your handicap. It takes alot more than three lousey games to bring a handicap up. Seems Golf is all about what you are capable of instead getting a true representation across all games like bowling.

So maybe the USBC establishes some sort of handicap system in bowling and make it set across the organization. Leagues can still use averages if they choose to but there is one defining handicap for a bowler according to USBC (Of course this should cross league and tournament bowling).

Urethane Game · « **Reply #27 on:** July 18, 2013, 02:13:58 PM »

The whole notion of "prize money" in leagues is so outdated. I'd rather bowl for trophies rather than let the league hold my money for 33 weeks. Especially since most prize funds tend to be fairly balanced in terms of distribution anyway.

As far as tournaments, if you're bowling for more than a dollar it should be scratch period. What you would lose in entries would be gained in those who don't bowl anymore because of the six ball toting guys who somehow manage to book 170 but shoot 770.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #28 on:** July 18, 2013, 04:44:00 PM »

The handicap system in golf is based on your potential, not your average. You use the best 10 differentials (based on course rating and slope) out of your last 20 scores, average that and multiply by .96 to get your index. Then your index is adjusted into a course handicap wherever you play. In addition there is equitable stroke control. For example, if your course handicap is 9 or less you can take no more than double bogey on a hole. 10-19 you can take a 7. Ect. It eliminates somebody from playing great for 15 or 16 holes, realizing their score and having 12's on the last 2 holes so they don't lower their index.

I've seen some real scumbags on the golf course when the stakes are a little higher, but the club I play in now the winner each weekend gets about $30 in pro shop credit and the guys are about as honest as they can be.

icon · « **Reply #29 on:** July 20, 2013, 08:40:25 AM »

Well i was watching a league last night, The dumpers win again lol. Some guy with a 183 average shooting 731 like a pro. Interesting he was in 10 brackets at 183 average and wins them all.

Shaggy · « **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2013, 08:57:16 AM »

One way to elimate sandbagging in handicap leagues is to make the team payout distribution more even where the 1st place team doesn't make much more than the 5th place team. You can eliminate the individual payouts or make them small....I was the high average bowler in my winter league and received $12

If the sandbaggers want to make money they can bowl in the scratch sidepots.

Author Topic: Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging (Read 10168 times)

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Interesting article about why leagues allow and promote dumping and sandbagging

littlegreycat

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blesseddad

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txbowler

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bowl400

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trash heap

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trash heap

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blesseddad

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blesseddad

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trash heap

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Urethane Game

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itsallaboutme

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Shaggy

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