Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.

I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks.  I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket.   The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.

I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins.  These same guys can average 220+ on walls.  This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.

I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots?  I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today.  What happened?

The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself.  Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power.  If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball.... and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.

I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed.  Some people will argue that it has evolved.  I reject that.  Where is the real test of skill?

I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways), and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage).  You can draw the same parallels to bowling....

Quote from: SG17 on February 01, 2018, 09:06:05 PM

I am in agreement with this sentiment.

When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.

I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.

The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?

I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.

If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.

Jess

I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues.  Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us. 

If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.

Most who bowl league as stated don't want any challenge added to the game and that is fine. Sport and PBA experience leagues will never take off as the interest is just not there to support them. I would love to try one myself but like most on the board we have a love for the sport more than most USBC bowlers hence we take time to read boards like this one....

Quote from: JessN16 on February 02, 2018, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: SG17 on February 01, 2018, 09:06:05 PM

I am in agreement with this sentiment.

When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.

I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.

The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?

I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.

If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.

Jess

I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues.  Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us. 

If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.

Quote from: JessN16 on February 02, 2018, 02:23:48 AM

Quote from: SG17 on February 01, 2018, 09:06:05 PM

I am in agreement with this sentiment.

When ever someone posts ideas for radical or significant rule changes, they almost always smell like they they are trying legistalating away what is viewed as someone else's advantage so that the only viable way to approach bowling their own "A" game.

I'll go one step further than that: Regular league shouldn't be tough. It should be average at worst.

The USBC got it right with the PBA Experience leagues. And guess what? No one wanted to bowl on them. That right there tells you all you need to know. It was bowlers' choice, and the bowlers themselves voted not to go for it. That's the thing that drives me out of my mind about talk of artificially cutting back scoring pace for the typical house league/house bowler: We gave them the choice a decade ago, they chose Option B instead, so now we're going to go tell them, "Sorry, we don't like the choice you made so we're going to take your choice away"?

I bowled on PBAX league a couple of summers and the first year we had a no-thumber and his wife (who had a pretty fair rev rate herself) join our league. He was booking 225 on THS and she probably around 180. A month in, his average was 170 and hers around 150. They both quit. I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm not spending that kind of money not to be able to strike, simple as that." And there you go.

If we're going to keep longing for the prestige of golf, it should be noted that handicaps are set on courses set up as easy as they can be set up, teeing off from typically the white tees. But there are a lot of bowlers who want us bowling from the blues (or even the golds) on a tournament shot just for the purpose of setting base averages. Kind of silly, IMO.

Jess

I think you are failing to take into account that all PBA leagues (in my area) are summer leagues.  Bowling and summer don't mix for most of us. 

If the PBA leagues were offered as winter league offerings, I'd be there with bells on.

Jess's comments are dead on. From experience, I can confidently say that if you started a PBA winter league, you might be there on league night by yourself.

We have summer PBA leagues in this area at a few different houses, and none of them have a big draw. There is only one winter PBA league and last year it had 6 teams. Six teams...in a area with many bowling alleys with most of which have very good league business.

Face the facts, your average league bowler does NOT want to bowl on a sport shot.

After re-reading the title of the thread I agree, bowling is ruined for good.  So all of you guys that average better than a 210ish house hack like myself should just quit and take up golf, pickle ball, darts, shuffle board, horseshoes, croquet, or whatever floats your boat.

I'm gonna stick with it. 

Not to beat a dead horse here, but it has been bugging me lately.

 Really?
 Usually, when someone starts with this, they’ve got a bag of switches at the hand.

I see people averaging 220+ on "house" conditions, with no real versatility, and no game other than big revs. Their spare shooting sucks.  I see guys that can miss by 5 boards in or out and still crush the pocket.   The same guys can easily shoot 450 without the free hook outside and hold inside.

I also see guys in more competitive leagues, where the shot is intentionally challenging, bring a 20X average into a tourney and get pins.  These same guys can average 220+ on walls.  This hardly seems ethical and it hurts turnout.

 And this, in a nutshell, is why bowling needs to separate the game from the sport.

I guess my point is ... Can we PLEASE get rid of wall shots?

 Not going to happen, at least not where recreational leagues are involved. Owners/proprietors are out to build and please an ever increasing clientele. If they feel like having an “easy” THS out there will do that, then that’s what they will run.

I remember the local USBC/ABC office would run tapes regularly to check for illegal "block" shots, which are known as "walls" or "THS" today.  What happened?

 As do I. Heck, I used to be one of the people running the tapes. I think, and it is my opinion only, that differing opinions at the highest level lead to reducing the requirements of the game. Remember, the BPAA has/had the ear of USBC, and has at least SOME influence on them. Maybe they convinced them that whatever was good for owners/proprietors was good for bowling in the long run.

The combination of reactive resin equipment, blocked walls, and pins that fly like crazy has turned bowling into parody of itself.  Shot making is no longer rewarded and accuracy seems to have taken a backseat to power.  If you have both, then you are deadly but us mere mortals cannot hit dimes while putting 500 RPM on the ball

 While I tend to agree with you, we must admit to ourselves that we are in the GREAT minority, and as such, stand little, if any, chance of having our viewpoint validated because, simply, the vast majority just don’t see it that way. SORRY, but I understand.

.. and that brings up the 2 handed / thumb-less argument which I will not engage in but I will say I believe it should be illegal.

 And you would be wrong.
 Yes, it’s different, and no, I can’t do it, but lots of people can’t do what I can, and they didn’t outlaw me because I had a physically superior technique (at least it was “back in the day”).

I know its an old, worn out subject, but the game has been destroyed.  Some people will argue that it has evolved.  I reject that.  Where is the real test of skill?

 I rejected it as well for a loooooong time, but the truth is not always what we perceive it to be. The skill challenge is still there, it’s just that the skill set has changed. Change is the ONLY thing in existence that you can count on. NOTHING in this life exists in a static state, why should bowling be any different?

I think we could take a lesson from the PGA .... they got rid of square grooves (to put premium on accuracy over power and hit fairways)

 And the USBC lowered the max diff. on balls a while back in an attempt to do just that, as well as revisiting the rules on coefficient of friction for modern cover stocks.

 This was done to help limit the effect that equipment had on the players physical abilities, or the replacement thereof.

and make anchored putting illegal (it gives the golfer a physical advantage).  You can draw the same parallels to bowling....

 Well, perhaps, but maybe not. Anchored putting is strictly a skill you can learn, while two handed release in bowling is somewhat of a superior PHYSICAL ability.

 EVERYBODY can learn to anchor putt, but not everybody can bowl two hand style.

 Physical ability will ALWAYS trump skill, because skill is a learned trait while physical ability is an innate quality you are either born with or not. Just because someone else has the ability that I don’t does not mean I should exclude them because of it.

 Should we ban left handlers? Or people who slide on the “wrong” foot? How about people who can throw a “backup” ball, or a full roller?

Anybody that bowls on THS risking their own money gets what they deserve.  Sport shot leagues are common outside the sticks.  Let us rec bowlers have our walled shot and leave us be.  I know more of us make fun of that guy that takes a just for fun league super serious and kicks the ball return than think wow he is really good.  Plenty of flat patterns and scratch leagues to be found if so desired and its not my fault you may live in BFE with one bowling alley that won't do what you want.  If you want to make THS averages not count in tournaments I am ok with that but otherwise don't punish us that love bowling the game in an effort to save bowling the sport.  Some of us have accepted we are never going pro and just love the game.  Personally I would probably still be willing to bowl on some pattern that drops my average 40 pins if I had no choice but I am probably in the minority.