Author Topic: Is it really Bowling anymore (Read 2552 times)

SrKegler · « **on:** November 08, 2004, 09:40:43 PM »

This ties in with my post on â€œSour Grapesâ€ on why so many of the older bowlers are handing up their shoes. Talked to a few more this week that have quit.

Itâ€™s been mentioned a lot on this site that averages donâ€™t mean anything anymore, doesnâ€™t really reflect a bowlers ability. Most of us agree with that. Unfortunately it looks like even honor scores are irrelevant anymore.

Going strictly by the numbers put out by the ABC, it looks like the odds of hitting an honor score is 13:1. Lets change that figure by saying that the odds break out to 50:1, crediting every one with 4 awards. That still means the award isnâ€™t anything special.

Then lets look at leagues. Itâ€™s becoming harder and harder to find a scratch league. Most houses have gone to just one shift a nite, especially in my area, there just isnâ€™t a block of time available to even start a scratch league.

Now lets take a look at the entire picture from the older bowlers perspective.

Averages are immaterial. Scores are immaterial. Competition is minimal. To be able to bowl we have to join handicap leagues that expect us to handicap at 90-100% to give the lower averages a chance.

In the end, the only reason to even show up on league nite is to have a couple of beers with our friends.

Hmmm, I could just drop the league, meet the guys in the bar and be money ahead.

Thatâ€™s some of the reasons Iâ€™ve gotten from friends that have quit. Unfortunately I have to agree with them.

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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

Bjaardker · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2004, 07:04:31 AM »

I almost hung up my shoes last year, and after this year, there's a good chance I will.

I had high hopes for the sport when the sport shot system was announced. Yet in the last 3 years, I've been unable to find a league within 45 minutes of my house that is a sanctioned sport league. There was one league 50 minutes away, it was already full.

Bottom line is, standing left throwing right is not the sport I wanted to play. In "real" bowling there are so many nuances. It's a very deep game with lots of thinking involved. What I see in the centers today does not resemble that sport.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2004, 07:14:50 AM »

I guess Iâ€™m luckier in the competition thing than I feel I am. Sawbones keeps telling me this but us youngâ€™ns donâ€™t seem to listen up very well.

What has happened that so many higher average bowlers no longer want to bowl in scratch leagues? It used to be you got up around a 190 average and they were fighting to get into a scratch league.

Do they prefer being a big fish in a small pond? (High average in a handicap league).

Do they refuse to risk not winning in their league? New bowlers in scratch leagues tend to be on lower rung teams and it takes time to prove your self and move up.

Have scratch leagues priced themselves too high? My traveling scratch league is twice the cost of handicap leagues. Unless you are in the top 3 or 4 of the league the prize money doesnâ€™t make up the difference.

Do they think they donâ€™t have the equipment to compete? But half the high average handicap league bowlers buy more equipment than I do.

Do they not like bowling on the late shift? Almost all the scratch leagues I know of around here bowl second shift.

ten pin killler · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2004, 07:18:49 AM »

Well.....i havent been bowling as long as SrKegler having only started in 1987 about the time that urethane was making its big mark with booming scores. I have no problem with todays game. Times change and you either adapt or you get left behind. There is really no reason that senior bowlers cant upgrade their equipment and play the modern game since most performance balls do come in lighter weights for the elderly, kids and women. Lets face it, bowling is not going to go back to the good old days where everyone played up the track and prayed for one double and shot 5 pins for the rest of the frames. It just isnt going to happen. I personally like the modern game.......half of the fun of league bowling is seeing how far you can swing the ball and still hit the pocket with carry. Just my opinion..........

TPK

PS: and just for the record, I am not a cranker that stands left and throws right on a wall (i am a down and in power stroker). I bowl 2 leagues in the lowest scoring house in the area (6 houses total). Thus far in this center after 11 weeks, there are zero 800 series and only one 300 game.

Edited on 11/9/2004 8:31 AM

SPEEDYR · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2004, 07:56:47 AM »

You guys have some good points but.... While you are saying all of these things about the game isn't what it used to be are you trying to do anything about it? There are still several good bowlers out there and there are some very good young bowlers that just need a little help from everyone so they will want to compete in a scratch league. Tell me if you averaged 180 would you want to bowl against guys that averaged 220? I wouldn't but if you took a 5 man team and put 1 or maybe 2 180's with 3 220's or whatever then they would want to. I bowl on a scratch league where the only thing you get is whatever the other team is over 1050. And yes it has fallen off but it is starting to pickup again. I am a little over 200 and have never once not bowled because I was out averaged either in a tournament or a league. Also have you tried to talk to any center managers about getting scratch leagues of very little handicapped leagues going and then pushed the issue with the bowlers? I am in Ne Ohio and we started running a tournament series in all of the AMF houses, the series has points for the season to get you into the end of the season tourny. We gaurantee 1000.00 to win first one we had 39 bowlers, not bad for the first one now there is one coming up and we are hearing 60 plus at this one because of how the first one went. We had people drive 2.5 hours to bowl. And the prize fund really wasn't top heavy 450.00 for second on down. So there still are people out ther that want to do it and we need to stick together and get the younger ones that are in the high school leagues to stay interested. The modern game is different that the traditonal game but as with everything else it changes. Lanes, oils, balls, bowlers all contribute to the increase in honor scores and what not but you still have to be pretty decent and have luck to shoot a honor score. Now I have only been bowling for about 10 years and every year I get more into it. I work at a pro shop I keep up on all of the new stuff and I keep in touch with all of the center managers around my area even if I don't bowl in there house. We need to look at that good things with the modern game and not say how much better it used to be.

Keith

Doug Sterner · « **Reply #5 on:** November 09, 2004, 08:32:29 AM »

I can pipe something into this here....I agree with Bones on this one as my ex-wife is a perfect example.

There are many people in today's society (and she is one of them) who feel the need to be crawled up their children's backsides for each and every thing that they do. Although this is a noble trait at times, people take it to the excess.

There are far too many parents who put their spouses and themnselves aside for the sake of their kids. Again I am not saying that people should ignore their kids...I am simply saying that there are far too many people who are forsaking their entires lives for the sake of their children.

I feel that this is a reason for the high divorce rate among today's young couples as well. They jump into a marriage and immediately have a fmaily without establishing themselves as a husband and wife (been there, done that, learned the hard way.)

How does this all apply to bowling? People are not taking the time to relax and enjoy thier lives. They feel the need to have a family immediately and that increases the financial burden on the couple. ALso we as a nation in general tend to suffer from the "champagne taste on a Coors Light budget" syndrome. Instead of being happy with what we have, we tend to want more and that increases the financial burden to the point of "needing" a 2nd or 3rd job to pay for it all...and then there goes the recreation time. With that gone, the stress level increases, tension increases and divorce occurs. The bills get worse, the 2 jobs still need to be held and there is even less time to do anything for one's self.

I may have a slightly jaded viewpoint here due to my current situation but the time I have spent reflecting and talking to others in the same boat, I have come to the previously listed conclusions.

Anyone else agree here?
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Hide the women and children...
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pin-chaser · « **Reply #6 on:** November 09, 2004, 10:13:23 AM »

So many good points in this thread...

SrKegler Im with ya on the lack of credibility. Why bother.
Ryans - Its a joke the handicap system and the sandbaggers that it produces
Ten Pin Killer - Bowling would not be in the situation it is today if everyone saw it like you do. I am envious for sure.
Sawbones - I agree you yet again on (almost) all your points.. Your the Zen of bowling and you have your finger on the pulse of the bowling community inculding the defeatest attitude.
Speedyr - You live in a GREAT bowling community as is most of the northern states. Bowling is alive and doing better up there than in other parts of the states.
Doug Sterner - I am with you being a "prime" example. I quit bowling in 1989 (after 15 years) at age 29 to focus on raising my kids until 1999 when I got them hooked. In fact I left the bowling industry (was a head mechanic) so that I could make more money.

But with all these points no one is offering any real ideas about how to over come them. There are 1000 reasons why the decline in bowling continues. And without a doubt some of it is attributed to external events (economy, parenting changes, work place instability and many many others). But there is a whole slue of events that competitive bowling has shot itself in the foot with (THS, Bowling Ball Technology, Handicaping, sandbagging inforcement,long seasons, high prices) and continues to ignor the effects. We can choose to continue to debate these issues and give into bowling's demise or we can simply ban together and try to change the things we can change one at a time if necessary.

IMHO we need leadership to make a change. The past (ABC/WIBC/YABA) and the future leadership (USBC) does not see itself as a complete leader. They only see themselves as a membership origanization that is attempting to keep some standards for equipement. They dont see themselves as being responsible for the integrity issues making recommendations to bowling propriators. And sadly they dont see themselves as being responsible for advertising/promoting the sport. So who is doing it?? NO ONE. The BPAA and several independant people are attempting to assume these roles and it will be upto us to support them in there attempts. But we dont have to sit back and wait.. we can do what we can do now and report sandbaggers and get them expelled if they are bad influences because we dont need them and they only promote those activities. We can solicit propriators and bowlers to commit to shorter leagues and show them that perhaps this is a way to go. We can start local tournament promoting fair conditions and provide seminars and coaching to encourage and promote youth. Basically get involved in our sport beyond the participation and gripe stage.

I done. Sorry for preaching. This issue is near and dear to my heart.

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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

Pinbuster · « **Reply #7 on:** November 09, 2004, 10:48:10 AM »

No Love â€“ I about 20 honor scores (the mean so little any more I've lost track) and I willing say that without urethane and resin balls and the easy lanes I probably wouldnâ€™t have one. Iâ€™m a house hack and I know it.

Some of the issue is that most house hacks donâ€™t know it or at least donâ€™t act like they know it.

scotts33 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2004, 10:52:44 AM »

quote:
Some of the issue is that most house hacks donâ€™t know it or at least donâ€™t act like they know it.

I resemble that remark. I'm a house hack and I know it!

Scott

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #9 on:** November 09, 2004, 11:49:46 AM »

Bones, just curious if people hit a plateau and then decide to quit, would/does this apply to say a sport like golf?

Most people who play golf will never get better, or they may get a couple of strokes better but nothing drastic. Yet they still play it.

I think it's disappointing the direction bowling has gone in. I remember back in the late 1980s when I would go to one of the local bowling centers as part of the YMCA program when I was little it was on a weekday around 4PM. By the time I was done the leagues would filing in and I remember the place was packed for the first shift league.

I started bowling last September with the intention of getting better because it interested me. This same house was nowhere near as busy as I remembered it when I was little.

I think perhaps one of the biggest problems with bowling is there is a lack of respect for the sport. But this is brought on by how much easier house shots *CAN BE*. Even the fact that the PBA got bumped off to Sunday afternoons on ESPN didn't help much IMO. I remember watching the PBA in the early 90s and it seemed more respectable. It was on ABC at the time (correct me if I am wrong), Saturday afternoon, now it's shuffled off to obscurity. I will always remember watching Pete Weber win the 1991 United States Open. It was amazing to watch him throw all those strikes, but everything just looked more respectable back then. Now it seems as if the Pro Tour has lost that invincibility that it once had. You knew the touring pros were damn good, now everyone thinks because of their wall they are just as good. The best house bowler generally wasn't even near the same level of say Mark Roth back in the past and they knew they weren't. Now if they crank it up they suddenly think they are as good as Robert Smith just because they can throw a big hook. It's all about respect I think. Yeah I can throw a big hook as in throwing from the 30 board on the left out to the 1 board and rip it back into the pocket but I know I'm not as good as the pros.
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Somewhere in the far distant future Lane #1's slogan will be..."Lane #1, out-carrying Storm for over 50 years!"

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #10 on:** November 09, 2004, 11:52:54 AM »

Also I don't see what is so difficult about long league seasons.

I work, go to school, bowl, and do whatever else I need to do. I get up around 6AM every weekday. I don't care how long the season is. Hell it could be 52 weeks and I wouldn't care. It's not that hard to take 3 hours out of your week to bowl. Most people probably spend more time sitting in front of their TV than that.

mumzie · « **Reply #11 on:** November 09, 2004, 12:06:12 PM »

I quit for 12 years in 1983. I quit because I had a new baby, and wanted to be with him. Period. One more baby later, and when he got to be big enough, we started bowling together as a family. (1995)

I love the game. But if it gets to where I'm NOT looking forward to going, I'll quit again. I survived before, I'll survive again.

Fortunately, finances aren't a problem at this point. The big limiter to me is time. Time is now my most precious commodity. If I want to spend it bowling, fine. If I choose to do something else, that's great too!

This is the 7th season I've bowled in my Thursday night league. I have constantly turned down other opportunities to bowl in higher level leagues on that night, because that league has been so much fun. This year, with the exception of my teammates and a very few individuals, the league is like party night at the morgue. It isn't fun any more. We lost 5 or 6 teams this year, and unfortunately, most of those teams were the fun ones. If it doesn't get better, we will move on next year.
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"Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."
--Winston Churchill

charlee323 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2004, 12:26:12 PM »

I just think there are so many things to do in life people lose interest quickly.

Overhand · « **Reply #13 on:** November 09, 2004, 12:26:50 PM »

What's going on here? Why did you take up the sport to begin with?

Even if you average 240, don't you enjoy making a ball react as it does and making the pins do what they do?

Even if you average 140, don't you enjoy trying different things to get better and feel a thrill when you do hit 200?

Guess I have 'hackitisis'.
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It is by Caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by Caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #14 on:** November 09, 2004, 12:32:10 PM »

Bones, there will always be attrition and natural attrition just as you gave the example of people who have simply want to take time off from bowling. That has always been the case and always will remain the case. Those are not the people this discussion is based upon. The un-natural over attition that takes place year to year with the influx of subtantially new bowlers to offset the loss like was the case some 30 years ago. You are right, if I want to quit becuase I simply dont want to bowl, I will quit. But if I quit because I CAN NOT commit to 36 week leagues because my employeer sends me away, or that I am offended that so many sand baggers ruin my competion... or that flings that have less skill can take advantage of conditions and run there mouth (...etc) that is the problem of bowling driving people to away. And to let this continue is simply wrong. I simply cant understand where you think that we differ so much on these topics and why you goto such lengths to obscure the real issues. We both want the same things, to return to a day when the best bowler wins, to the day when competition was earned and respected, to the day when skill was the rerequisit. The only difference between us is that while your attitude is echoed in so many other, I refuse to give into it and simply let bowling continue its downward spiral. I will always have desires that this sport will one day be the best it can be and not be what it has become.

To the new bowlers who really dont understand what I mean and are excited about this sport... I thank you but want you to think about the following:

If you spent 20 years honing your skills to become the best you can be and maybe not a top professional, and suddenly your skills became unimportant to the point that bowlers with less than 1 or 2 years of bowling consistantly out score you despite of the fact that you still maintain your skill level you can begin to see where the problem begins. In a sport skills required should be consistant from generation to generation protecting the investment made by all. This is not what is happening in this sport. The example also illuded to here is golf and not being a a golfer I really cant contribute positively. But being a billiard player of some capasity, sure the felt is different, and sure the tables might not be level, and sure the rails might be dead and the balls larger or smaller or lighter... but the game has not changed so much as to guide the balls into the pockets nor can you weight the ball to hook toward a pocket that would provide mistake area. If we continue down this path the skills you are developing today are going to be obsolete too and after you have been married to it for 20 years you too will be complaining... "lets make this game whatever it will be... requiring the bowler to develop some set of skills and be done with it" or else you will quit too,

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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
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Author Topic: Is it really Bowling anymore (Read 2552 times)

SrKegler

Is it really Bowling anymore

Bjaardker

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

Pinbuster

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

ten pin killler

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

SPEEDYR

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

Doug Sterner

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

pin-chaser

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

Pinbuster

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

scotts33

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

DavidKSNK

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

DavidKSNK

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

mumzie

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

charlee323

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

Overhand

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore

pin-chaser

Re: Is it really Bowling anymore