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Author Topic: Is there really a fair handicap?  (Read 3467 times)

The Hose

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Is there really a fair handicap?
« on: March 30, 2004, 08:54:33 PM »
Our city tournament is going off of 85% of 220.  There were only 3 bowlers who got zero handicap.  In singles, one of the better bowlers in town bowled well and shot 729 scratch.  But he was a little down last year and booked a 208 average.  With his handicap, he had a 759.  One of the young bowlers shot 744 scratch but had subbed in a league where he had over 21 games and the 10 pin rule got him so he had zero sticks.  Another bowler who is hot and cold shot 750 scratch but he gets to shoot off of 188 so he ended up with 835.

Team winners were almost at 3500 and doubles was 1490.

When I asked the board why they go off of 85% of 220 they say that they are afraid that the numbers would decline.  I asked them if entries were up and they said "No, but they didn't go down".  I don't think that the entries would go down if it was 75 or 80% of 210.

Shouldn't working on you game mean something?  Shouldn't the one who bowls the best get the reward? Where is the incentive to get better if you can average 175 and get "hot" and win the tournament?

I played Tennis and don't remember getting any points or games from the guys who were better players then me.  If I wanted to beat them I had to practice harder on my game to get to their level.  This isn't the case in bowling.  Who started this crap?

I drive 4 hours to Dallas to compete against some of the best in the country.  CJ, DJ Archer, Wes Mallot, Chris Barnes, Rick Lawerence, Mike Scroggins, Paul Fleming, Dino Castilo, and I could go on and on.  I bowl scratch against those guys and it doesn't bother me to lose to them nor do I feel like they should give me sticks.  If I want to win, I need to work harder and get better.

It's not easy walking in every handicap tourament and seeing 830's.

I know you'll say, " well, don't bowl them". Shouldn't I reply "Well, get better!".  I only bowl about 3 handicap tournaments a year.  We don't have much in the way of scratch stuff unless you go to Dallas.

I don't mind giving "some" handicap.  I understand you need it to get the numbers.  But what is really fair?
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Pinbuster

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2004, 12:16:51 PM »
It would be interesting to know on your (or others) tournament. I am willing to be that of the cashers the higher average bowlers dominate. The problem is we see the one or two handicappers who go crazy and end up shooting huge numbers and winning.

In truth is any amount of handicap is unfair to someone who shot higher scratch. But as you said it becomes a number game to get entries.

Perhaps there needs to be a sliding handicap. The more scratch you shoot over your base average the less handicap you would get. This might not of kept your 188 average from winning but it might turn his 835 into a 775 and let the scratch bowlers feel like they had a chance.

I guess we are lucky here in that I don’t worry too much about the handicap scores and look more at the scratch portion of our city tournament.

As far as tennis goes, the few tournaments I ever played in were always flighted by ability which is a form of handicapping.
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Rantings

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2004, 12:22:15 PM »
IF you are looking to drop entries try going scratch and see what happens. Your city needs two separate tournaments. HCP bowlers still out number those at scratch and the powers-that-be know it. Over a long haul I would still bet on the scratch bowler to win as long as the tourny is more than 3 to 4 games. Just rantings.
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charlest

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2004, 12:25:59 PM »
Hose, (& Bones),

1. There are always going to be sandbaggers, until society gets some lie-detector device attached to the human being or we all become telepathic.

2. There are always going to be the people who this year (or whatever year the average is taken) are bowling much better than their normal average and who will complain that they should get more than their allotted handicap.

3. There are always going to be a percentage of bowlers who are bowling well under their normal average this year and will score much higher than their current average. Others will say they sandbagged for this tournament.

What the valid local handicap percentage (100, 95, 90, 85%, etc) and the whatever the base (200, 240, etc) someone will not be happy with it, yet it is the best can be done IF you want 170 bowlers to be able to compete in the same tournament as 220 average bowlers.

You can't make all the people happy all the time. You'll go crazy trying.
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Kevin

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2004, 12:37:00 PM »
The higher average still has the advantage with 85% handicap of 220.

say bowler a) has a 175 average. His handicap will be 38. He bowls a 175 + his handicap of 38 = 213

bowler b) has a 220 avg and zero handicap. He bowls his average of 220. He wins.

So if both bowlers hit their average, the better scratch bowler always wins.



If bowler a) scores 15 pins over his average his score would be 228.
 Bowler B) scores only 9 over his average. Bowler B still wins with a 229.










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The Hose

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2004, 12:44:55 PM »
Where does the money go?  Not to the best bowler.  AE handicap gets money, non for scratch AE.  Singles? Doubles? Team?  No one cent got to the High scratch in most of those tournament.  Now they even have some tournaments that have a 6-gamer, which is Singles and Doubles totals.  Some of those are even handicap.

I'm asking where the incentive is for handicap bowlers to get better.  Wouldn't the owners want people out working on their games?  

What does it take to shot 750's?  You can miss twice or three time a game and make every spare.  Even on a wall that isn't easy.  Yet that is what it takes just to cash in some of the handicap touraments.

I bowled last weekend out of town and shot 2000, not great but still over a 220 average.  What did that get me? I think you know the answer to that.
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mumzie

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2004, 01:43:38 PM »
I hate handicap, too - for all the obvious reasons. However, when I won "mens" city tournament a few years ago, going in with my 182 average and shooting 743 scratch, I didn't turn down any handicap.
And that average was legit - the average the year before was 187, I'd had two bad injuries... And the next year, started getting serious.

I do, however, favor divisions. WIBC does this - I think they are up to 5 divisions now. 200+, 180-199, or whatever they are. This makes more sense - like is competing against like. Yes, you will still have the bowler who shoots lights out - who booked in the brickyard, etc, etc. But it is far more equitable than handicap.

But my real pet peeve regarding handicap is NEGATIVE HANDICAP!! I worked hard for every one of those pins - don't you DARE take them away.
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Steven

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2004, 01:51:05 PM »
Hose: First, congratulations on your performance in your City Tournament last week. And I completely agree with the premise of your topic -- most handicap schemes are unfair and biased against the more skilled bowlers.

The basic point that should never be lost when discussing handicap is that in general, it's easier for a lower average bowler to bowl significantly over average than it is for a higher average bowler to bowl significantly over average.

That's why 100% handicap is really silly -- too silly to take seriously. The fact is that it's much easier for a 175 bowler (who's working on his/her game at all) to meet or exceed their average than is is for a 220 bowler to do the same.

So given this, in most cases, handicap needs to set to some number significantly less than 100%. Of course, there are exceptions. First, there are senior leagues, where everyone basically "is what they is" and therefore 100% might be the best solution. And then there are the obnoxious beer/social mixed handicap leagues, which probably shouldn't be sanctioned at all, because scoring and results are so skewed that they have almost no meaning that should be referenced for future handicap calculations.

As far as tournaments, what I've seen work best is a '199 and less' division based on 90% handicap, and a '200 and over' scratch division for everyone else. To try and come up with any handicap scheme that would account for a mix of bowlers averaging anywhere between 150-230, and the fact that those averages were established in different houses on different conditions, borders on insanity and invariably generates crazy results.
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pin-chaser

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2004, 01:51:53 PM »
Hose,

   I am with you brother. But I look at the handicap not that I am spotting them pins but that they are spotting me pins. I mean to be fair,  If an am averaging 230... and the handicap is 90% of 220... I am getting 10 pins plus 10% of the difference in our averages. The real problem is that, it far easier with todays equipement for a 170 average bowler to shoot 150 pins over his average (660) than it is for me to shot 150 pins over mine (840). In by gone days, when equpiment required more accuracy and consistantcy in entry angle and relase, 170 bowlers had a much harder time shooting 660... today every 170 bowler does this several times a quarter, back then, it was once per year at best. It is not that handicap that is hurting us, it is the equipment and cheaters who intentionally average 20 pins less so that they can intentionally have more pins is what is hurting us.
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hotwire13

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2004, 01:56:36 PM »
quote:
The higher average still has the advantage with 85% handicap of 220.

say bowler a) has a 175 average. His handicap will be 38. He bowls a 175 + his handicap of 38 = 213

bowler b) has a 220 avg and zero handicap. He bowls his average of 220. He wins.

So if both bowlers hit their average, the better scratch bowler always wins.



If bowler a) scores 15 pins over his average his score would be 228.
 Bowler B) scores only 9 over his average. Bowler B still wins with a 229.










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Winning and Losing are both very temporary things. Having done one or the other, we move on. Gloating over Victory or Sulking in Defeat is a good way to Stand Still.


on paper, this point makes sense.  that is, until u get into the realm of much higher scores than just basic averages.  when bowler A shoots 240, the 38 pins handicap brings that to 278.  now, instead of having to shoot only 9 pins to win, he needs to shoot a 279+, which only allows one 9 count spare throughout the game.  i am not siding with scratch or handicap here...i dont think there will ever be a situation where everyone is happy.  but the higher u get in scoring, the harder it is for the higher average bowler to keep up, even though there scores may be superior.  my thinking is this - the harder the condition(THS, OOB, sport shot), the more handicap should be given...a THS in my mind should be handicap enough for everyone...it brings peoples averages up anyway, so the playing field is leveled out without having to add any pins(and the higher average bowlers do not benefit as much).  the more difficult conditions start to show differences in average, typically, and should require more handicap given.  better bowlers make better shots on tougher conditions, so anything less than 100% handicap should allow the better bowlers to end up on top.  this may be a bad way of looking at it, but i am not a huge fan of handicap anyway.  noone will ever agree on a set percentage or base, but there may be little adjustments that can be made according to format and conditions.
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Kevin

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2004, 04:54:41 PM »
So the guy with the 38 handicap fires a 240. So he wins that one game. Is he going to throw another 200+ game? Most likely not that day. That is why he is at 240 handicap. If he does, his handicap will go down. Odds are he will probably throw a few 140s to offset that 240 game.
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Steven

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2004, 05:10:34 PM »
quote:
So the guy with the 38 handicap fires a 240. So he wins that one game. Is he going to throw another 200+ game? Most likely not that day.  


Kevin: You hit on the problem (at least kinda). In most cases, there is at least one guy (or gal) with the 38 handicap who not only fire a 240+ the first game, but also the second, third, fourth, etc. On paper this shouldn't happen, but it does. And it doesn't have to be everyone -- just a few. This is why more often than not a 170-190 average bowler wins these handicap events.

And this is what drives the more skilled bowlers nuts.


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hotwire13

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2004, 05:20:22 PM »
steven...that is exactly what i am trying to say...thanks!
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Steven

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2004, 05:32:06 PM »
hotwire: You actually said it well, but I wanted to phrase it a little different so that Kevin could better understand.

This is an important topic because there is much confusion and misperception on how handicap really works and how it affects competition. Hopefully, threads like this clear the issue up.
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Kevin

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Re: Is there really a fair handicap?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2004, 07:05:14 PM »
Maybe there is a need for tourneys to be setup like softball. A, B, C and D divisions

a) 210+ avg
b) 180-210
c) 150-180
d) 0 - 150

You can have it set up that a Bowler who bowls most his games in a tourney above the high avg for his division, auomaticaly gets moved up for future events.

exmple - Say you have a 189 avg. You would be in Div B....During the tourney you avg or bowl the majority of your game above 210. Next tourney you will be moved in to group A.

No handicap, all games a straight up. You just bowl in the dividion that meets your skill level.
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