win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Is this a stupid idea?  (Read 1920 times)

The Hose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Is this a stupid idea?
« on: July 10, 2003, 08:10:50 PM »
First of all, I don't read bowling magazines or keep up with what ideas have been thrown out there to control scoring but allowing Seniors, youth, and new bowlers to still score.

We all know that the game today is too easy. We all complain about how easy scoring is and that they should do something to control scores. Could this work?

I'd think pins are the cheapest and easiest thing to change. We here things like "Make the lanes longer" "Add frames to the game" "More units of oil" and other things like that. Are pin weights a way to monitor scores?

In Tennis, there are different levels of players so they have gone to a level rating. The top players are in Open then they go to a 3.00, 3.50, 4.00 so on and so on. Couldn't we do that in bowling except change the weight of pins for different leagues or tournaments?

Senior and youth leagues could use a lighter weight pins then others. Your Tuesday night mens league may use another weight and top Scratch leagues and major tournaments may use a real heavy weight of pin.

That way when someone shoots 857 it would be followed by the weight of pins. Honors scores would be given in all categories but would be a nicer award for the heavier weight class. We'd all know what the scores were shot on.

I know it would be tough to police, and maybe the pins be different colors so everyone would know if they are the correct pins for that league or tournament.

Well, could this work?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I just haven't heard or read much about it.

 

Ishmael

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2003, 11:17:35 AM »
Anything that forces the bowling centers to do more work will fail.

Jeffrevs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11890
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2003, 11:21:18 AM »
quote:
Anything that forces the bowling centers to do more work will fail.


well....the house I practiced at last night had 1/2 the house with gold pins...heavier.....


Or,....you could just go to sport and /or PBA type patterns.......

The oil patterns plus the technology is what is making scores higher
--------------------
JEFF
Just chimin' in !

The Hose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2003, 11:29:57 AM »
Ishmael, I agree with you but I'd think that it would be a small amount of work for the owners and maybe even the ABC afford to help with the cost of the pins.  Maybe not but it's would be interesting to have the level sorted out by color of pins.  "Hey, I shot 726 Gold last night" " I had a 779 Yellow"  
I'd like to see that instead of hearing someone tell me that shot 743.  743 on that shot may be like 646 on another.

The Hose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2003, 11:34:23 AM »
Bob, I'm thinking of easy ways to accommodate all levels.  Lets face it, most seniors in their 70's are not able to generate the power and speed to keep up with the younger players.  Making the pins really light for them along with youth sounds like a way for all to have fun and shot good scores depending on weight level.

Edited on 7/11/2003 11:38 AM

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24526
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2003, 11:35:28 AM »
Rather than change the weight of the pins (which was done with the Brunswick gold pins on the PBA tour for a while), realize that there are not one but two hollows within each pin (at least for wooden pins). The bottom hollow actually makes it MUCH easier for pins to fall. A long time (10-15 years ago) Ernie Schlegel, a PBA bowler, suggested to the ABC that the bottom hollow be removed; his idea was not implemented.

Also, some way to stop the bottom of the pin from chipping during its use. That chipping away, or rounding of the bottom part of each pin that rests on the lane bed, also make pins fall more and more easily as their use rate increase.

So without ever changing the actual weight (which is also possible) you can easily make scoring much more difficult, even with 3lb 6 oz pins.

Other items such as making the gutter a true and consistent depth and reducing the bounciness of side walls will also dcrease scoring. Many, many places have very high gutters which prompt pins to bounce around and roll arround a LOT.

So there are much easier ways to reduce scoring than pin weight, but it is also feasible. However, having to buy more expensive and new pins might not be met gladly by many proprietors.



--------------------
"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

charlest

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24526
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2003, 11:36:59 AM »
quote:
quote:
Anything that forces the bowling centers to do more work will fail.


well....the house I practiced at last night had 1/2 the house with gold pins...heavier.....
--------------------
JEFF
Just chimin' in !


Heavier, but very easy to knock down. Have you seen a gold pin rolling so slowly you thought it would stop before it reached a standing pin, yet it knocked down that pin?

--------------------
"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

cosmo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2003, 11:37:52 AM »
quote:
Anything that forces the bowling centers to do more work will fail.


Oh how true - it's barely possible to get them to do the work nec to keep the place running never mind extra work. Storing multiple sets of pins and then making sure the correct pins are in place for the correct league or tourney would never happen.

Charlest - you make some great points - changing the design of the pin and removing the flat gutters would be the easiest changes to implement.


--------------------

Pork Fat Rules!  


Edited on 7/11/2003 11:44 AM

Edited on 7/11/2003 11:45 AM
Where's my Mule?

Jeffrevs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11890
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2003, 11:38:50 AM »
quote:
Heavier, but very easy to knock down. Have you seen a gold pin rolling so slowly you thought it would stop before it reached a standing pin, yet it knocked down that pin?



Imagine that!! I DID!! just last night !  Good point
--------------------
JEFF
Just chimin' in !

michelle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4913
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2003, 12:01:42 PM »
The gold pins were not necessarily a situation of changing to heavier in spec.  The reason people referred to them as heavy was that most houses spec the lightest available under current guidelines.  IIRC, the gold were 3.10's with a slightly different center of gravity.  Mimi put them on a practice pair for a regional in the SE and I actually preferred them to "regular" pins...unfortunately, I was one of the few.  The other thing with gold pins was that the scoring unit had to be tweaked a little because of the different reflections from gold to white.

channel surfer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2003, 12:14:23 PM »
Na, i think they should keep it like it is. What do you mean its to easy? Once 70% of the bowlers has 50+ 300's under there belt and at least 4 900's with it and everyone avgs 280 or above, then thats when the game is to easy.
--------------------
My Bowling Clinic Site: http://channelsurfers.vze.com

ASK A PRO:http://channelsurfers.vze.com/atp.shtml

Money is no object to me because I dont have any...

Edited on 7/11/2003 12:19 PM

9andaWiggle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13414
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2003, 12:56:08 PM »
Hose - I had mentioned heavier pins before, but heavier for everyone - and that idea didn't get that good a response.  In theory, this sounds like a good idea, but in reality, it could have serious financial impact on the bowling centers.  Each machine currently holds 20-30 pins (that I know of), multiply that # by how many machines in a house, then figure that number times how many different levels of league they will have.

16 lane house x 20 pins = 320 x 4 (1 youth, 1 adult, 1 scratch league, and 1 tournament set) and you now have 1280 pins needed for 1 small center (instead of 320).  Not to mention they will need a place to store these pins, and most centers do not have a lot of room in back as it is.  Then, how would you like to be the guy manually pulling those pins out and putting the others back in every day?

It would be neat to try, but I don't see this as a realistic solution.  Keep thinkin, though!!

--------------------
9-

Why, WHY won't the last one just fall??  It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!
Little Bo Peep has lost her sheep...

I wonder where they went? ;)

mumzie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6914
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2003, 01:22:28 PM »
I agree with Michelle - one of the houses that hosted our ladies state tourney a couple of years ago used the gold pins. The average woman was terrified - they were heavier, and the 12 pound plastic balls weren't particularly effective.
I LOVED 'EM - talk about true - I don't recall thinking "gee, funny carry, or funny action" on ANY hit on the gold pins - vs 1-3 times per game on regular wood.
Maybe two levels of pins -
I can see using a "regular" level for the handicap leagues, jrs, and seniors.
Putting in the gold pins for the scratch bowlers - the visual would also let everyone know they'd "arrived"...

Sure is a better solution than the "sport condition", which I think is completely bogus, anyway.
--------------------
Bowling? Of course it's a sport.
------------------------
www.Shirts4Bowling.com
We Know What Bowlers Want

Home of the HAMBONE shirt!

Sir_rev-a-lot

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: Is this a stupid idea?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2003, 07:57:40 AM »
Here is a little insight from a mechanic about the pins.

A case of pins cost approximately 90 dollars a case.  If your center has 40 lanes, and a big youth program, you would need to buy 80 cases (20 pins per pinsetter).  This comes out to an extra $7200.00 every 15-24 months depending on the corporation rules or the Independent's Owners decision. SO Cost effective it isn't.  Also, I believe that most people don't care about the weight of the pins, they are just out to have a good time.  As Much as we all covert league bowling, especially with Brunswick and Amf owned centers, there is no justification in buying  these extra pins.  

ALso, at my center on Friday Night, we have about 14 lanes of Adult leagues and 10 lanes of youth leagues going on at the same time.   What happens if a pair breaks down in one of the leagues, and they have to be transferred to a pair in the other league that is already done (Adult league transferred to a pair used by the youth and etc.).  The mechanic would need to pull out those 20 pins, and put the other set of 20 pins in.  Considering the mechanic is more then likely working on the broken down pair, trying to get that back up and running, the last thing in his mind would be changing those pins out.  

The other issue is where to put this pins??  I have been in the back of approximately 10-15 different AMF and BRunswick centers (I have put time in for both companies), and all of them have small aisles behind the machines.  Most of these centers only have approximately a 6-8 foot walkway behind the machines, and most AMF centers don't have a seperate shop area, so they have there work bench and Office desk and cabinets in the pit aisle.  You already have approximately 20-30 boxes of pins which are either older pins used in emergency cases, or newer pins that get rotated in as you start losing pins.  NOw you are proposing adding another 20-30 boxes in this space.  It starts making it a very crowded space to work in, and hard to maneuver around.

New ideas are always great for people to think of and shows the positive spirit we all think with.  When thinking of this considerations though, also take in account the business aspect of the moves.