Author Topic: Is this right? (Read 7013 times)

MikeJohnsPro · « **on:** August 21, 2013, 10:21:12 PM »

We had position round for our summer league last night and was in 10th place. The league takes 9 to the roll off, we won 4 four points and the team in 9th which was 4 points ahead lost all four but we have more total and handicap pins. and in the rules it states. Team Standings are determined by the percentage of wins/losses by each team.
Total pin fall with Handicap Then actual games won
Is the priority How to break team standings tie when teams are tied in points won.

The league president made us do a one game roll off
And we lost, but we shouldn't had a one game roll of to begin with.

Do we have a right to be pissed?

MikeJohnsPro · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2013, 03:16:12 AM »

Called the league president and he read the rules and said "that may have been last summer league rules" I said well they were updated 8/15 of this year. He said we will do an investigation? Wtf..

trash heap · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2013, 09:27:50 AM »

Here are the USBC Rules.

Quote

Rule 112 - Tie Game
When a tie occurs, each of the teams shall be credited with one-half the value of the point(s) normally awarded. There shall be no playoff or roll-off of such ties.

Rule 113 â€“ Roll-offs/Playoffs/Special Contests

113a. Definition

1. Roll-off: A roll-off is a separate competition conducted to break ties. A roll-off must be conducted:

a. To determine the champion when a tie exists for first place at the end of the league schedule, unless the league allows for co-champions;

b. To determine first place when a tie occurs in any segment of a split season;

c. When the league decides to break a tie for any other position.

2. Playoff: A playoff is a scheduled competition conducted by leagues. The playoff may be conducted in one session to determine a champion when the league bowls a split season, or across multiple sessions such as a bracketed playoff system.

Scores bowled which qualify for USBC awards will be recognized.

NOTE: Total pins for the season, segment or team average cannot break position standing ties at the conclusion of the season, or at the end of any segment of a split season schedule.

Your league did it right. Also I don't see that this rule can be over written by league rules. If your league has anything about total pins being the deciding factor then that rule should be eliminated.

Djarum · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2013, 11:03:42 AM »

AFAIK, points can be used and are used in most leagues around here to break ties if and only if we aren't talking league champions. However, this has to be spelled out in the league rules. Has the USBC changed this in the last few years, because thats been done for over 10+ years I've been bowling adult leagues?

I may have to dig up an old USBC rulebook because I'm pretty sure at some point in the past it was completly legal to use total pins to break ties for non championship position.

Djarum · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2013, 11:20:17 AM »

I re-read the post.

What you are talking about is "position round", correct?

At any rate, I found this interesting:

113a/4 Can total pins break a tie when three teams are tied?
No. The ties in standings cannot be broken by total pins. The only way the ties can be broken
is to hold a roll-off, this is not commonly used to break standing ties other than first place.
We recommend prize money for the tied places be added together and distributed equally
to the teams tied. For example: If the prize money for three teams tied for 4th place and is
$200 for 4th, $175 for 5th and $125 for 6th place. Add the prize money and divide by three.
(200+175+125= 500/3=$166.66 per team)

So even the answer here states that rolloff for non-champion position determination is uncommon. Basically, the suggest here is to leave the tie and divide the money.

I've NEVER bowled on a league that has done that.

trash heap · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2013, 01:55:41 PM »

And here is a clear example of one of the biggest issues in todays leagues. You have the way leagues want to do something and USBC rules state something else. For this case specifically, any league that breaks ties by total pins is doing it wrong. Some will state that this is not a big issue. Well tell that to a team that ties and doesn't get any money.

I have seen teams quit a league over an issue like this.

We used to have rule in a league that when a tie would occur for 1st place that the teams would replay the 10th frame instead of doing a whole game. Rule was never an issue until it a tie happened for 1st place on position night.

They played the extra frame and a winner was declared.

The losing team found out that the league rule was violating USBC Rules. Well things got nasty for a while. People were upset, some were going to file complaints.

It was finally decided to have co champions. Still the whole situation left bad feelings to exist the following year. People quit the league. If the rules had reviewed and the changes made and the league notified of changes prior to the year starting, then this whole mess would have been avoided.

trash heap · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2013, 02:27:15 PM »

They didn't get hosed. The league did the right thing.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2013, 02:43:33 PM »

Quote from: trash heap on August 22, 2013, 02:27:15 PM

They didn't get hosed. The league did the right thing.

Yeah, I re-read the thread, I retract my comments.. Learn something new everyday.

trash heap · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2013, 03:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Good Times Good Times on August 22, 2013, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: trash heap on August 22, 2013, 02:27:15 PM
They didn't get hosed. The league did the right thing.

Yeah, I re-read the thread, I retract my comments.. Learn something new everyday.

Well, you could be right. It might be a non-sanction league. If that is the case, USBC rules are out the window.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2013, 04:13:09 PM »

LEAGUE DID IT RIGHT. PERIOD.

We (read I and my team mates) went through this EXACT thing a while back. Points, pinfall, and wins were used as a tiebreaker, and my team moved on.

LOSING team filed a protest to the USBC about it. The USBC DIS ALLOWED our win, and mandated a rolloff to determine the winner.

In the event of a tie, ANY tie, WINNERS MUST WIN, AND CANNOT BE "AWARDED" THE WIN USING OTHER PROTOCOLS.

Djarum · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2013, 04:53:39 PM »

So does this go back to an ABC rule? When I was bowling YABA in the mid 90's, it was done the same way, a tie, other than first and second place, broken by total handicap pincount.

MikeJohnsPro · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »

They did it right, I'm just glad we got them to take down the old rules and put up the new ones. Lol the team that beat us won the whole league! Glad for them.
Thanks everyone.

Author Topic: Is this right? (Read 7013 times)

MikeJohnsPro

Is this right?

MikeJohnsPro

Re: Is this right?

trash heap

Re: Is this right?

Djarum

Re: Is this right?

Djarum

Re: Is this right?

trash heap

Re: Is this right?

trash heap

Re: Is this right?

Good Times Good Times

Re: Is this right?

trash heap

Re: Is this right?

Juggernaut

Re: Is this right?

Djarum

Re: Is this right?

MikeJohnsPro

Re: Is this right?