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Author Topic: Is this Sandbagging?  (Read 3350 times)

txbowler

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Is this Sandbagging?
« on: August 15, 2007, 05:20:08 AM »
Question:

A bowler lives in a small town that has only 1 sixteen lane house.  The nearest house is 30 miles away in another town.  This house is old, wood lanes, and is using a Century 100 lane machine.  The high average in the house is 190.  The lane pattern is not the great wall of china.  The bowler in question averages 185.  He has booked 183-185 in each of the last 3 years since he moved to this town in multiple leagues at this house for 32 week league or longer.  

He goes to HDCP tournaments and bowls very, very well.  Averaging well over 200 and winning or cashing high in these tournaments.

Someone checks him out on bowl.com and notices that 4 years ago, he lived in a major metropolitan city and averaged 223.

Is this bowler a sand bagger?

FYI - The above case is not me.
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KDawg77

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 01:22:19 PM »
Yes and no. Yes, if the bowler didn't try everything in his arsenal nad abilities to roll his best. No, if he did and his house is just crap. I know someone in the exact situation and he cashed for $2400 in the USBC because his average fell into Classified although he's a 210 bowler on any decent condition.
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 01:29:50 PM »
If he is legitimately trying his best and not deliberately throwing off, he's not sandbagging.  Some houses are just by nature very low scoring because of the equipment being outdated and poorly maintained.  It's not his fault they aren't on pristine lanes laying down the biggest wall ever like a bowling alley 50 miles down the road.
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txbowler

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 01:42:44 PM »
But how many bowlers are going to believe he is not sandbagging?

As most bowlers today assume every house is putting out the great wall of china.

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another300

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 01:50:33 PM »
No it's not sand bagging. If that is the only house he bowls in and has more than 21 games, he is fine. Although, there is a USBC rule that requires him to report any previous winnings.  Most tournaments also require this and will re-rate him based on what he averaged in those tournaments.

I bowled in a tough house and in a "wall shot" house.  The difference in averages was 10-15 pins for me.  Other bowlers had 15-25 pins difference in averages from that house to other "wall shot" houses.
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 01:51:37 PM »
Well, I guess if he really wants proof, he can try carrying a standings sheet from that league with him that shows the averages in that league.  The doubters can compare the averages for the other higher average people with their averages in other leagues if applicable.
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myrddin97

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 01:51:56 PM »
quote:
But how many bowlers are going to believe he is not sandbagging?

As most bowlers today assume every house is putting out the great wall of china.



Then screw 'em.  As long as that person know they're doing their best then they shouldn't care what some stranger thinks.  Besides, most likely, it will be the "house hacks" that truly think the other guy is sandbagging as opposed to having a lower average because the shot is legitimately harder (and legal) than what they may bowl on.
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Monster Stitch

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 01:55:05 PM »
I have to vouch on stuff like this. We have one Junkie house where the conditions are very tough because of the topography of the lanes. I tried my best and averaged 193. Other 3 normal house we have i'm easily 210+. Some house i hear have very old beat up lanes with an old oil machine. So it can happen. I know it doesn't sound fair when they go to HDCP tourneys but what can they do.
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bluerrpilot

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 02:03:01 PM »
HDCP tourneyment clubs dont generally put out a difficult shot. So if he is bowling on tough conditions, then goes to an easy condition and scores well, then where is the problem? Thats why people practice on harder shots.
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Nails

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2007, 02:23:17 PM »
Depends on his intent.  If, like you say, he has only one tough house nearby and it's not practical to drive further, then that's his average and it's OK.  If he's only bowling at the one tough house to keep his average low in order to clean up at handicap events, he's a bagger.  Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to tell unless you know the guy.  To an outsider, he'll look like a bagger no matter his intent.  He obviously has the ability to drive to the handicap tournaments where more money is on the line, so he's kind of borderline.

If I were bowling handicap events, and some guy beat his book average by 25 pins per game every time, I'd either ask to have him re-rated or I'd stop entering every event he attended and let the tournament director know why.
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SrKegler

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2007, 02:46:37 PM »
Doesn't seem like sandbagging to me.  Guy is doing his best on the conditions available.

I bowl in one of the tougher leagues here.  High average last year was 208.  I booked 198, 20 pins lower than the cake shots I had in Illinois.

I guess what you are saying is everyone should bowl on the easiest conditions available just to have an inflated average.

If you don't want to give up the extra pins in tournaments, only bowl on the tougher patterns.  Perhaps then the houses will start putting the tougher shots out to keep from losing league bowlers.

In other words, if you want the "glory" of a high average, don't complain.  No one is forced to bowl on the easy conditions.
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shelley

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 03:26:22 PM »
Sandbagging is deliberately manipulating your average to give you an advantage in handicapped or divided tournaments and leagues.  It doesn't sound to me like he's doing that.

Now I'd be in favor of beating him about the head with the rule book if he didn't report tournament winnings properly.  He knows that his average is not reflective of his skills in tournament situations at other houses and probably knows he should be re-rated.  If he then chooses to disregard the rules, maintain that his 185 average is representative of his abilities, and not report that he's got a 210+ tournament average, then I might call him a sandbagger.

SH
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ccrider

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2007, 03:39:39 PM »
NO. The bowler is not sandbagging. I bowled in two houses this summer and had a 15 pin difference in my average, soley because the house in my hometown has old wood floors and a wore out lane machine that does not put down a consistent shot. The other house is 55 miles away, Brunswick synthetics and does not put down the Wall of China, outside of 7 is generally out of bounds and the shot seems to change from ball to ball. Nonetheless, the shot is consistent and hence easier to score on.

If I choose not to drive 55 miles to bowl in the good house, I would not appreciate being called a sandbagger, simply because I have been forced to bowl in tough conditions and improve my game in order to score.

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Gunny

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2007, 04:14:46 PM »
quote:
I have to vouch on stuff like this. We have one Junkie house where the conditions are very tough because of the topography of the lanes. I tried my best and averaged 193. Other 3 normal house we have i'm easily 210+. Some house i hear have very old beat up lanes with an old oil machine. So it can happen. I know it doesn't sound fair when they go to HDCP tourneys but what can they do.
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I agree with this.  the house i currently bowl in is old with old oil machine.  high average in this house for the summer was 198.  i was 193.  i only bowl in this house cause the other one is 35 miles away.  i was 200 in that house last fall and 210 in that house 6 years ago.  my current house hasnt had a 200+ finishing average in 4 years.(from what the owner tells me).  in which he is replacing to synthetic by october.

so NO, he is not sandbagging.  just tough conditions.
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michelle

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Re: Is this Sandbagging?
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 04:47:41 PM »
quote:
HDCP tourneyment clubs dont generally put out a difficult shot. So if he is bowling on tough conditions, then goes to an easy condition and scores well, then where is the problem? Thats why people practice on harder shots.


It is not always even a matter of tougher shots.  Sometimes the older houses have crappy topography and crappy pins.  I have also bowled in a house that was almost impossible to get left with because of the above-ground ball returns.  Add in Twister pins and spare shooting was an adventure until I learned to make the necessary adjustments...but by then, the season average (short season) was shot to hell.
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