BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on January 06, 2014, 08:29:44 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfuRaHrpogE
For those that haven't seen it or heard of it yet. I don't know how much it costs, but the results appear to be there.
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Dang that looks intense. Looks like the future to me - if the price is right!
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agree it looks like a must have if the price is right....
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Price listed on the Jayhawk website is $1,795. -- JohnP
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At $1795, it's not ready for personal use prime time. :)
It's interesting that they say it doesn't heat the ball beyond 125 degrees, which they claim is the threshold for a safe oil extraction. And they say the dishwasher method and hot water baths exceed 125 degrees and can be dangerous to the coverstock.
In any case, maybe the price point for this technology will come down in few years. It does look like it has promise.
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At $1795, it's not ready for personal use prime time. :)
It's interesting that they say it doesn't heat the ball beyond 125 degrees, which they claim is the threshold for a safe oil extraction. And they say the dishwasher method and hot water baths exceed 125 degrees and can be dangerous to the coverstock.
But that's not necessarily true. It all depends on the temperature of your water heater!
Sounds like a misleading sales pitch.
Aside:
What happened to 140 degrees being the maximum allowable bowling ball temperature? It had been that for years. When did the change come along and who validated it?
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But that's not necessarily true. It all depends on the temperature of your water heater!
Sounds like a misleading sales pitch.
Aside:
What happened to 140 degrees being the maximum allowable bowling ball temperature? It had been that for years. When did the change come along and who validated it?
Definitely some marketing going on. Still, how hot does the enclosed area of a dishwasher get?? It has to be somewhat hotter than the temperature of the water.
As to your aside, I've heard so many numbers toss around, I'm not sure anyone knows for sure.
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Steven,
The Detox is designed with manufacturer warranties in mind. Some companies have a 125 degree threshold and others have 140 degrees. Just look on the boxes of the bowling balls and they will have warranty temp ranges that a ball needs to stay in. When the balls get warmer than these temps the ball runs the risk of cracking and releasing Plasticizer (Not a good thing). The Ultrasonic waves are designed to pretty much scrub underneath the cover stock in a safer and faster way, unlike other methods that just use extreme heat and have no way of penetrating the covers. Another nice feature is the ability to change the temp using a temp control on the Detox if the operator feels it necessary.
This machine is designed for Pro shop use and the ROI does not take very long. Our first test site several months ago doubled his investment in his first 2 months.
This is the next generation for deep cleaning and oil removal that bowlers and pro shop operators are going to love.
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At $1795, it's not ready for personal use prime time. :)
It's interesting that they say it doesn't heat the ball beyond 125 degrees, which they claim is the threshold for a safe oil extraction. And they say the dishwasher method and hot water baths exceed 125 degrees and can be dangerous to the coverstock.
But that's not necessarily true. It all depends on the temperature of your water heater!
Sounds like a misleading sales pitch.
Aside:
What happened to 140 degrees being the maximum allowable bowling ball temperature? It had been that for years. When did the change come along and who validated it?
for instance Brunswick, DV8, and Radical have a 125 degree threshold while Storm and Roto Grip have a 140 degree threshold. It is stated on every ball box.
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At $1795, it's not ready for personal use prime time. :)
It's interesting that they say it doesn't heat the ball beyond 125 degrees, which they claim is the threshold for a safe oil extraction. And they say the dishwasher method and hot water baths exceed 125 degrees and can be dangerous to the coverstock.
But that's not necessarily true. It all depends on the temperature of your water heater!
Sounds like a misleading sales pitch.
Aside:
What happened to 140 degrees being the maximum allowable bowling ball temperature? It had been that for years. When did the change come along and who validated it?
for instance Brunswick, DV8, and Radical have a 125 degree threshold while Storm and Roto Grip have a 140 degree threshold. It is stated on every ball box.
Accepted, but since 95% of the time implementation of any warranty is virtually at the whim of the manufacturer or the distributor, we can hardly take the statement of such factors in that warrant as statement of fact. Indeed, since Brunswick and Storm differ as to the temperature limitations, there is no standard. If you choose to stay under a 125 degree limit, it will meet their "stated" warranty requirements.
Still you shouldn't say all hot water baths are too hot.
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Steven,
The Detox is designed with manufacturer warranties in mind. Some companies have a 125 degree threshold and others have 140 degrees. Just look on the boxes of the bowling balls and they will have warranty temp ranges that a ball needs to stay in.
Jayhawk, thanks for the information. I went out and checked one of my Storm boxes, and sure enough, it says 140 degrees. I checked one of my Motiv boxes and it says 125 degrees.
I guess there is some useful information in the fine print on those boxes. :)
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JayhawkBowling, is it available for pro shops to purchase now or is there a release date available? I work part time for a shop & they may be very interested in trying it out. Thanks
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dballz,
As of January 1st the Detox is available for purchase for Pro Shops.
Regards,
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Thank you!
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Gosh. Who knew that a water medium with some kind of way to penetrate the pores would be the next generation of ball cleaner?
Guess us dishwasher fans knew what we were doing. BTW, before somebody chimes in and says water in the home can be hotter, not according to most building codes which either require a water heater not to go above 120 F or require a anti-scald valve which will mix cold water with hot to achieve a 120 F or below water temp out of tap.
To the fan of the light bulb/dehydrator method who actually thinks a dishwasher can get hotter than the the tap water temp. All Laws of Thermodynamics aside, not if you turn the "sanitize" feature off (if your dishwasher even has one).
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Is this suppose to be better than using a rejuvenator oven?
Not impressed with the before and after video. May be if they were using throbot.
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Not impressed with the difference in before and after shots? I naturally assume you're joking. The difference is clear, and as expected.
However, at $1,795.... Not geared to the personal market.
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Unless there is something special about the heat source of the water anyone at home can achieve the same results with hot water by using household items.
I tested my idea on the stove tonight and will post a video tomorrow. I can acheive a steady temprature of 125 degrees more or less easily withen minutes. It also shows the effectiveness of hot air, hot water, and running water as a way to trasnfer energy. Running water is most effective, hot water is the next, and air is last. All will work better then doing nothing.
Brunswick through there testing reccommends not exceeding 150 degrees and suggest 125-150 as ideal. The Seimic steamer is at 212 degrees which I would not ever consider doing at any point.
Many fast food restaurants and others have machines that do the exact same thing. Here is a diy link
http://food-hacks.wonderhowto.com/how-to/cook-food-perfectly-home-with-super-cheap-diy-sous-vide-machine-0148452/
or the other option
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/product/sousvide-supreme-demi-temperature-controlled-water-oven-in-red/1017819020?device=c&network=g&matchtype=&mcid=PS_googlepla_nonbrand_kitchenelectrics_&gclid=CJTRmMXZ7bsCFY1FMgodhkAArw
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I tested my idea on the stove tonight and will post a video tomorrow. I can acheive a steady temprature of 125 degrees more or less easily withen minutes. It also shows the effectiveness of hot air, hot water, and running water as a way to trasnfer energy. Running water is most effective, hot water is the next, and air is last. All will work better then doing nothing.
Looking forward to seeing your video. I don't want to get into contest over air vs. water, since they both work. But I do want to understand your conclusion that air is lacking in some level of effectiveness. It defies my own experience.
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No problem. There's a reason food thaws quicker under cold running water vs a counter top at room temperature. Get and ice cube and try it under cold running water then at room temp or an oven. Its very interesting.
My vid will be edited and up in the morning.
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Here is the video link once it is loaded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGhEJqIEP-E&feature=youtu.be
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It's Russ Wilson throwing the shots . . the guy basically IS throbot. Collegiate national champion with WSU, has an Open Championships eagle, is Jayhawk's pro shop equipment sales manager, IBPSIA vice president and instructor, and we haven't even started talking about his wife yet. Not exactly the kind of guy you want to get in a bowling debate or pot game with, if your intent is to win, anyway.
Is this suppose to be better than using a rejuvenator oven?
Not impressed with the before and after video. May be if they were using throbot.
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Looking forward to seeing your video. I don't want to get into contest over air vs. water, since they both work. But I do want to understand your conclusion that air is lacking in some level of effectiveness. It defies my own experience.
Simple thermodynamics. You don't even need running water to prove it. Take two frozen items (chicken for instance) and put one in a bowl of ice cold water and one in an empty bowl and put them both in the fridge. Even though the environment is the same temperature (ice cold water and refrigerator) the chicken in the water will thaw faster. There is simply more thermal mass in the water to transfer heat to the frozen item.
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No, I am not impressed. I don't question the bowler's ability to repeat shots. However, with the goal being to show how much better the ball reads the lane after going through the detox, I will not accept that the bowler does not, at least subjectively adjust his release in order to facilitate meeting the goal.
He is not throbot. He is human. Howevr, if you wish to believe that this is an objective way to assess the before and after affect of using the detox, drink the kool-aid man, drink it till you are full.
Not impressed with the difference in before and after shots? I naturally assume you're joking. The difference is clear, and as expected.
However, at $1,795.... Not geared to the personal market.
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No problem. There's a reason food thaws quicker under cold running water vs a counter top at room temperature. Get and ice cube and try it under cold running water then at room temp or an oven. Its very interesting.
My vid will be edited and up in the morning.
I checked out the vid. Nice work. I wish I had your video production skills.
You definitely proved the fastest method for melting an ice cube. I'm not a scientist, so I don't know if demonstrating methods for melting ice absolutely translates to efficiency in oil extraction. For the sake of argument, I'll accept the principle -- heat transfer through water is a more efficient transfer method than heat through air.
But what I'm equally interested in is final effectiveness. Elapsed time aside, are you saying that water based methods will extract more oil from the ball than air?? In other words, if you evaluate the Brunswick study and their conclusions:
http://www.innovativebowling.com/products/brunswick%20oven%20research.html (http://www.innovativebowling.com/products/brunswick%20oven%20research.html)
Would they have reported more effective results if they had used a water based method instead of controlled hot air in a ball oven?? Given Brunswick's conclusions, I'm not sure there is much room for a more positive outcome, but I'd like to hear your insights.
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Don't forget that in addition to Jayhawk's new Detox, Powerhouse introduced the Wave about a year ago, so there seems to be a trend towards water based systems for removing oil.
http://powerhousebowling.com/news/news_detail/powerhousetm_wave_brings_ball_care_out_of_the_kitchen (http://powerhousebowling.com/news/news_detail/powerhousetm_wave_brings_ball_care_out_of_the_kitchen)
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Oh, because it wouldn't look bad at all for Jayhawk to sell an $1800 piece of equipment that actually doesn't work because they tried to fake a video to move units? You're not questioning the video here, you're questioning the integrity of everyone involved with the video and the development and production of this piece of equipment. I don't drink kool-aid, I trust the people at Jayhawk. If they say it works, it works.
No, I am not impressed. I don't question the bowler's ability to repeat shots. However, with the goal being to show how much better the ball reads the lane after going through the detox, I will not accept that the bowler does not, at least subjectively adjust his release in order to facilitate meeting the goal.
He is not throbot. He is human. Howevr, if you wish to believe that this is an objective way to assess the before and after affect of using the detox, drink the kool-aid man, drink it till you are full.
Not impressed with the difference in before and after shots? I naturally assume you're joking. The difference is clear, and as expected.
However, at $1,795.... Not geared to the personal market.
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For those interested, here is an excerpt from a post I made on bowlingchat last March. This was in response to the pros and cons of using a Revivor versus the hot water bath method of oil extraction. I don't design coverstocks, but this is how I see the science.
I have put more thought into this than I should. Here are some of the thoughts of each system and their pros/cons that I came up with. Please comment freely.
Revivor Oven:
- Use of controlled heat to raise the temperature of the converstock
- Removes oil by way of heating the coverstock causing "expansion," pushing oil to the surface
- Pressure differential between the compressed coverstock and the atmosphere is the driving force for oil removal.
- Atmosphere applies lower pressure causing highest pressure differential. This leads to oil moving faster in the coverstock to the surface
- Using hot air has a lower heat transfer rate causing long heating times to remove oil
- Oil must be removed from the coverstock separate from the process
- Must be used at pro shop unless an individual buys a Revivor (cost)
Use of Water (for this case, I will consider both a water bath method with stagnant water and a water "washing" method with heat control and constant water movement over the surface)
- Use of heated water to raise the temperature of the coverstock
- Removes oil by way of heating the coverstock causing "expansion," pushing oil to the surface
- Pressure differential between the compressed coverstock and the atmosphere is the driving force for oil removal
- Water applies higher pressure causing a lower pressue differential. This leads to oil moving slower in the coverstock to the surface
- Using hot water has a higher heat transfer rate causing shorter heating times to remove oil
- Oil is constantly being removed from the surface of the coverstock when using a wash technique
- Water baths require replenishment of hot water
- Water baths can be done at home
Initially, this list is a beginning point in making a decision to which method one would use. I feel both methods have benefits and both can be used equally safely.
The Revivor Oven does have the benefit of providing a higher pressure differential causing oil to be extracted faster once the coverstock has been heated. And since the pressure at the surface is lower, it can be assumed more oil may be able to be extracted when compared to the water method. However, using heated air as a heating medium will take longer, but that may be offset with the quicker oil removal once the set temperature is achieved. One area of possible improvement (if it hasn't been done already) is a way to remove oil from the surface of the bowling ball during the process. Not having a Revivor Oven myself (have used one), I am also not sure if there isn't a fan in the Revivor Oven allowing the heat transfer to improve.
A professionally designed water system (possible Powerhouse Wave) can be a viable option to the Revivor Oven. A water based system can heat the coverstock quicker perhaps decreasing the time required, but will give up some of that time benefit due to the lower pressure differential between the coverstock and the water. The pressure differential can be reduced if the amount of water staying in contact with the ball is reduced (something like a water spraying method or only keeping a small water film on the ball). Another negative to the water method is the amount of energy it will take to heat up the water source. If the process time can be reduced with the use of water, then the energy usage may be less.
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Spmcgivern, the Rejuvenator Oven has a fan that circulates air and the oil is removed from the surface of the ball by pads that the ball sit on and rotate on during the process. Once the pads get oil soaked, you simply replace them.
Once the oil is brought to the surface for a given temperature, and wiped by the pad, the ball stops "sweating" and the process is complete. Whether using water or air, once all of the oil is removed from the ball, then that has to be the optimum obtainable condition.
Perhaps this water based system will be faster, but I see no other possible benefit, other than saving time.
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Is everybody missing the key component here? Ultrasonic. It's not just another water bath idea. It gets deeper than traditional methods. If it was traditional water or air, how could it go faster unless there was another factor? It goes faster and is more effective because it's ultrasonic.
Spmcgivern, the Rejuvenator Oven has a fan that circulates air and the oil is removed from the surface of the ball by pads that the ball sit on and rotate on during the process. Once the pads get oil soaked, you simply replace them.
Once the oil is brought to the surface for a given temperature, and wiped by the pad, the ball stops "sweating" and the process is complete. Whether using water or air, once all of the oil is removed from the ball, then that has to be the optimum obtainable condition.
Perhaps this water based system will be faster, but I see no other possible benefit, other than saving time.
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Gizmo,
Is this an assumption that you are making, that it goes deeper than hot air in an oven, or is this fact?
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All the "ultrasonics" do is introduce a mechanical wash into the system. All they do is form micron sized bubbles within the medium thru cavitation. The sound waves produce the cavitation. There is a lot of thermal energy stored within these bubbles and when they hit the surface of the ball, viola, a "mechanical" process is created to lift the oil out of the pores. Our company uses ultrasonics in addition to heated solution to clean parts before processing.
Its not rocket science, de-oiling a bowling ball. Heat in some way, physcially have a way for oil to be taken away from surface of ball. Air, water, towel, dishwasher jets, whatever you want to use, use it. All these methods, Rejuvenator, Innovative, Jayhawk, dishwasher, bath tub under running water are the same. They heat the ball and remove the oil that comes out. Arguing about it is like arguing which beer is better or whether Ford is better than Chevy.
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No problem. There's a reason food thaws quicker under cold running water vs a counter top at room temperature. Get and ice cube and try it under cold running water then at room temp or an oven. Its very interesting.
My vid will be edited and up in the morning.
I checked out the vid. Nice work. I wish I had your video production skills.
You definitely proved the fastest method for melting an ice cube. I'm not a scientist, so I don't know if demonstrating methods for melting ice absolutely translates to efficiency in oil extraction. For the sake of argument, I'll accept the principle -- heat transfer through water is a more efficient transfer method than heat through air.
But what I'm equally interested in is final effectiveness. Elapsed time aside, are you saying that water based methods will extract more oil from the ball than air?? In other words, if you evaluate the Brunswick study and their conclusions:
http://www.innovativebowling.com/products/brunswick%20oven%20research.html (http://www.innovativebowling.com/products/brunswick%20oven%20research.html)
Would they have reported more effective results if they had used a water based method instead of controlled hot air in a ball oven?? Given Brunswick's conclusions, I'm not sure there is much room for a more positive outcome, but I'd like to hear your insights.
Glad you enjoyed, thank you.
The only point for the video is to prove as mentioned earlier because water is denser then air (mass property) it will work faster. Not better, not deeper, just faster. We will still use ovens as a heat source for food but it isn't the only one. Once the ball is to the correct temp range to sweat oil the same goals are accomplished.
I have no idea what ultrasonic means in reference to the detox. I put it with the rest of the marketing/sales pitches you will se to see any item. Because saying it is a hot ball bath isn't really helpful for an $1800 product. In the video the main point I got from it was it was safer because it doesn't exceed 125 degrees. That means little to me for many reason. Mainly because I can hit that same number via air or water.
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LGD,
Everyone knows, Chevy makes better cars, Ford makes better trucks. ;)
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After reading around I think the key word here is the ultrasonic. Once you google it you see plenty of ultrasonic cleaners available. It become more evident that this is what is used and repackaged to make the product you see. Similar to what we have seen else where with other products. judging by the common sizes available it also explains more to me why this device doesn't completely submerge the ball. Most units have a depth of 6-7".
Most bowling items are just that, repurposed items from other fields.
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Ultra sonic cleaning basically uses frequencies to create microscopic bubbles that expand and collapse on themselves to clean an object. The size of the bubble is controlled by what frequency is used. This technique is used to clean or penetrate into spaces that other cleaning methods cannot get into. Since bowling balls are very porous, ultra sonic is a great way to deep clean the oil and dirt from the pores of a ball. If you have ever had your jewelry or watches cleaned they will be put into an ultra sonic bath. It is also widely used in many other fields such as plastics, medical, electronic, and automotive to name a few.
I will always recommend taking bowling balls to your favorite pro shop to be serviced and taken care of. Our company and others that sell similar items have all developed great products to help bowlers bowl better. We feel that the Detox does a great job and have been extremely happy with the results. For those that like to DIY at home, I feel that the water bucket method is the easiest to control the temp and does the best at home job. The water bucket method I believe was first recommended by MoRich several years ago for people that wanted to take better care of their equipment at home. Even for those that like to do this, I would still recommend to take your ball into a pro shop every other DIY time to use their professional oil extraction method that is specifically designed for bowling balls.
"Detox figjam time"
I just recently Detoxed a DV8 Ruckus after I was noticing some reaction loss and the need to square up more to use it. After Detoxing I had 3 800 sets and 3 300s including the back 20 strikes and the front 17 strikes the next week. I was able to open up a lane like when the ball was new and the ball was driving thru the pins like new. Sorry for the figjam, but I feel the reaction gained from the Detox helped me in shooting these scores.
Hopefully everyone will get a chance to try this new product out soon and determine the results for themselves. From the people that we have used the Detox on, they all have been very impressed with the results. I'm always happy if I can make another bowler happy, whether it be thru training, technology or scores.
Best Regards to all,
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How does the effectiveness of this method compare to that of other units designed to de-oil balls?
Also, I will but theree of the units if you will give me your bowling skills. Or, just promise that I will have similar results after I use it to clean my balls.
Ultra sonic cleaning basically uses frequencies to create microscopic bubbles that expand and collapse on themselves to clean an object. The size of the bubble is controlled by what frequency is used. This technique is used to clean or penetrate into spaces that other cleaning methods cannot get into. Since bowling balls are very porous, ultra sonic is a great way to deep clean the oil and dirt from the pores of a ball. If you have ever had your jewelry or watches cleaned they will be put into an ultra sonic bath. It is also widely used in many other fields such as plastics, medical, electronic, and automotive to name a few.
I will always recommend taking bowling balls to your favorite pro shop to be serviced and taken care of. Our company and others that sell similar items have all developed great products to help bowlers bowl better. We feel that the Detox does a great job and have been extremely happy with the results. For those that like to DIY at home, I feel that the water bucket method is the easiest to control the temp and does the best at home job. The water bucket method I believe was first recommended by MoRich several years ago for people that wanted to take better care of their equipment at home. Even for those that like to do this, I would still recommend to take your ball into a pro shop every other DIY time to use their professional oil extraction method that is specifically designed for bowling balls.
"Detox figjam time"
I just recently Detoxed a DV8 Ruckus after I was noticing some reaction loss and the need to square up more to use it. After Detoxing I had 3 800 sets and 3 300s including the back 20 strikes and the front 17 strikes the next week. I was able to open up a lane like when the ball was new and the ball was driving thru the pins like new. Sorry for the figjam, but I feel the reaction gained from the Detox helped me in shooting these scores.
Hopefully everyone will get a chance to try this new product out soon and determine the results for themselves. From the people that we have used the Detox on, they all have been very impressed with the results. I'm always happy if I can make another bowler happy, whether it be thru training, technology or scores.
Best Regards to all,
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An alternative which is 5-6 times cheaper..If you can get it from China.
Watch the photo as it's coded in chinese. It has tempeture and time control.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15928366388&ali_trackid=2:mm_11309660_4306316_14532435,0:1389251248_6k5_969468713&spm=a230z.1.5634029.185.z0Nj5v
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Just google ultrasonic there sold here all over ebay ect. Used for cleaning tools, jewelry, ect.
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The Detox keeps you from getting water in the thumbhole though . . I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut. Bowlers will always be bowlers.
An alternative which is 5-6 times cheaper..If you can get it from China.
Watch the photo as it's coded in chinese. It has tempeture and time control.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15928366388&ali_trackid=2:mm_11309660_4306316_14532435,0:1389251248_6k5_969468713&spm=a230z.1.5634029.185.z0Nj5v