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Author Topic: just a bit upset..  (Read 26061 times)

stormdamage

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just a bit upset..
« on: November 22, 2012, 11:36:36 AM »
Hey guys last night I had two ballsdrilled. When I got home I noticed one wasn't drilled right. I asked for a stacked drill pin over the ring and it got drilled pin over ring with cg in the palm. A label leverage you might say. I am furious but what if anything can I do? I know he'd fix it for free but I am not gonna have a brand new ball that's never been thrown plugged.
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charlest

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2012, 02:06:27 PM »
Even label skip the leverage, just hardly ever seen on tour with the type of drilling Stormdamage is talking about.  CG back towards grip? 

Why?  Why not?  It should roll the same right?

(What do I expect in reply).  A bunch of piling on).  Think, have you seen these?  Except at your house?  Playing your house shot?

Note in his reply JustRico never discussed the drilling? Why?

Why did someone want his cg right on or near his grip center to play cheetah (IF it doesn't make any difference)?

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS I await the piling on....



It's very simple. It's because "label" is not a drilling.
It's what the manufacturer puts on the ball to identify it.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Russell

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2012, 02:58:50 PM »
LL....are you just trying to pick a fight?

I mean I explained in detail WHY the CG placement doesn't matter....which was backed up by a former ball rep....

Blueprint...which exaggerates the **** out of everything only shows 1/2" difference at the pins...

and you're best defense is a guy using a ball that has almost ZERO core dynamics and a diff under .035 as a good reason why this debate needs to drag on?....come on..

kidlost2000

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2012, 03:58:20 PM »
"It's very simple. It's because "label" is not a drilling.
It's what the manufacturer puts on the ball to identify it."

Exactly Charlest. It really says a lot but will be missed by many.

Stacked, label, rev leverage, negative, are all very vague terms in many cases used to describe pin and cg locations on a bowling ball many times with out ever going off of someones PAP. Many bowlers, proshops, ect have become far more educated on what the effects are on drilling a bowling ball and how things will shift once holes are added to the ball. Also how that is important when measured off of a bowlers PAP not just putting holes over a label and saying its "label" or doing that and kicking the cg out with a weight hole and saying its label leverage ect ect.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Impending Doom

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2012, 04:12:47 PM »
Last time negative had anything to do with anything was when you were drilling anything with a pancake weight block.

kidlost2000

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2012, 04:49:18 PM »
Many bowlers and others think that if the pin is on the opposite side of the center grip line from their ring finger it is "negative".
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

JustRico

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2012, 06:21:36 PM »
Impending Doom...I'll give something to think about...
When you look at a pancake or 3-piece ball, we all assume it is a low diff low dynamic core; if you at it from a different angle, it is a large 2-piece core with one density piece on top of lighter density piece....yes it's a low diff core but it can still show similar characteristics as one of today's cores...i.e. if you add a weight hole you can increase the diff and can lower the RG as well as increase flare....I no longer at those types of cores as nothing less as a low diff core and deal with accordingly.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2012, 10:34:27 PM »
Let's switch the subject.

No referral back to the drilling of Mika's ball and on to a new discussion.

Why no discussion of Mika's pin under ring and cg under grip center drilling by Just Rico.  Who would know better than the knowledgeable JustRico who knows the ball used.

Ask yourself, why would a pro choose this drilling on a symmetric drill ball, if it doesn't matter?  Why is this pattern almost never used on the pro tour, but was used on that pattern?

Think about why this discussion is being avoided.  Why?

Regards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Russell

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2012, 10:43:23 PM »
Let's switch the subject.

No referral back to the drilling of Mika's ball and on to a new discussion.

Why no discussion of Mika's pin under ring and cg under grip center drilling by Just Rico.  Who would know better than the knowledgeable JustRico who knows the ball used.

Ask yourself, why would a pro choose this drilling on a symmetric drill ball, if it doesn't matter?  Why is this pattern almost never used on the pro tour, but was used on that pattern?

Think about why this discussion is being avoided.  Why?

Regards,

Luckylefty

Is this a joke?

Because they didn't want to put a hole in it...but wanted it to flare?

They also realized the core was not very dynamic...?

scotts33

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2012, 11:20:45 PM »
I;d suggest starting a new thread rather than clutter this one up LL.  This subject that the OP posted has been dealt with JMO.

Quote
Let's switch the subject.

No referral back to the drilling of Mika's ball and on to a new discussion.

Why no discussion of Mika's pin under ring and cg under grip center drilling by Just Rico.  Who would know better than the knowledgeable JustRico who knows the ball used.

Ask yourself, why would a pro choose this drilling on a symmetric drill ball, if it doesn't matter?  Why is this pattern almost never used on the pro tour, but was used on that pattern?

Think about why this discussion is being avoided.  Why?

Regards,

Luckylefty
Scott

LuckyLefty

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2012, 11:28:58 PM »
Russell,

I went back and reread everyone of your posts on this subject in this thread.  While addressing the beliefs of the CG No maddeh cult which exists out here, I guess I can say, I don't understand how they have added to the science or should I say pseudo science of the Brunswick video regarding same pin and different cg positions video.

I have many questions(several) about these videos which are intentionally not being answered out here.

I have found some documents out here sent to me or posted by Kidlost2000 and Scott33 to advance the science of core orientation and also I believe to backup my ideas and visuals of what I am seeing the ball doing on the lanes.

Again, to answer my question and I'll add another for you Russell.

1.  Why do you almost never see the described drilling Mika used that day on Cheetah used  on the pro tour on the majority of other conditions?

2nd question and while my previous post was intended for Just Rico this question is particularly for you Russell.

2. If you were going to compete in a tournament would you used the above referenced Mika drilling on a Strong symmetric to play deep on a late league shot inside the 4th area? or on Shark pattern?  Or a slight variation if you need it to make it realistic, move the pin up but leave the CG on the grip center would you choose this drilling to win while executing on this this angle of play?  Or if you wouldn't use a symmetric would you put your mass bias on your track?

Thanks,

Luckylefty
PS, Scott I believe we were joint posting, I will create a new thread on these areas...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 11:31:06 PM by LuckyLefty »
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

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kidlost2000

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2012, 12:39:18 AM »
So LL your asking why Mika had a ball with the pin under the ring finger and the cg on the center grip line and not have the cg kicked out?

 
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2012, 12:44:58 AM »
Keep in mind also having the pin down the ball will flare less and be less aggressive on the backend vs having the pin up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih45VXg8tP8
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:00:55 AM by kidlost2000 »
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

LuckyLefty

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2012, 07:33:27 AM »
Kid,

I actually asked JustRico that question and also Russell that and the other question regarding playing deep.  However, I find your input to always be helpful insightful and measured.



Of the tapes on you tube you highlighted which are the key ones to watch?  There were quite a few.

Thanks,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

kidlost2000

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2012, 08:03:04 AM »
Corrected link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih45VXg8tP8


Just trying to make sure I understood the question you were asking about Mika. Those other guys would be better suited for the answers.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Russell

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Re: just a bit upset..
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2012, 09:23:08 AM »
Quote
1.  Why do you almost never see the described drilling Mika used that day on Cheetah used  on the pro tour on the majority of other conditions?

To be blunt....it's because the guys are averaging 250 with other stuff.  I guess in a more detailed sense because he happened to have a matchup that day with that ball.  Keep in mind that they used to get 30 minutes to break down the pair for TV, Mika may have come up with a strategy to try and play towards a ball with a weaker core.

With all of the knowledge on the tour between the reps, if that was the best way to attack that pattern....guys would be doing it more often.

From my experience that pattern gets very over/under very fast if you use a ball with a core that mild.  It can get you a good matchup for a short period of time, but when it goes you're going to give away a lot of pins in a hurry with some 2/10s and big 4s because the ball is going to be more sensitive to oil.  Keep in mind that short patterns generally have high volumes of oil...and weak balls can tend to hydroplane a little too much.

Quote
2. If you were going to compete in a tournament would you used the above referenced Mika drilling on a Strong symmetric to play deep on a late league shot inside the 4th area? or on Shark pattern?  Or a slight variation if you need it to make it realistic, move the pin up but leave the CG on the grip center would you choose this drilling to win while executing on this this angle of play?  Or if you wouldn't use a symmetric would you put your mass bias on your track?

Again the cg has no bearing on the motion, it is about adding a hole to change the core dynamics....so I'll be as specific as I can when answering this....

- Would I throw a ball playing deep inside with a strong pin and no hole (something close to label leverage)? Probably not....when you keep the flare potential that high and don't have a hole, the ball will take longer to lose its axis and find a roll.  If you're giving the head pin away this can lead to a lot of corner pins as the ball can have a hard time picking up a roll before getting to the pins.  On top of that it will have almost maximum flare, so it will be using energy up very early.....this is a recipe for a carry nightmare (in many cases).

I would tend to use a weaker (longer) pin to reduce the flare.  Now whether I would have a hole or not would depend on the individual ball and shape desired.  I have a Lucid with no hole and a 5" pin (5" mass bias), and a Crossroad with at 5" pin and a p3 hole.  Both work well playing deep inside angles, it just depends on the situation.

Would I use this drilling on a long pattern?  Most likely not ever....with rare exception.  On a long pattern it is imperative to get the ball to lose its axis quickly.  As stated above strong pins and no holes (mass bias near track) drillings make the ball early and a little lazy downlane, which in my experience is the exact opposite of what you want.  To me medium or long pins with large holes usually are what you want to start with, and then switching to less flare and roll as the track breaks down.

I hope that answers your questions....you just have to keep in mind that what you see on TV is nowhere close to what they bowled on during the week.  It has been groomed for a few minutes to suit each bowler's strengths and weaknesses.  Sometimes they have a gameplan to create a certain look that they know will give them an advantage over the competitors, that may have been Mika's strategy that day.