BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Pinbuster on November 21, 2013, 09:22:47 AM
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One of my pet peeves is higher average bowlers telling lower average bowlers that if they shouldn’t have a handicap system that gives them a chance and that they should work harder and get better if they don’t like being beat up on by higher average bowlers.
There are several things there.
One is why are all these higher average bowlers bowling in handicap leagues for? We have more than enough higher average bowlers to make several scratch leagues but I’m aware of only one left in town and it is struggling. There is a capped league as well I believe but to me that is the same as handicapping and could say if you don’t like a stacked team then YOU need to practice and get better.
Two is while most people could always work harder at the game and improve with practice, coaching, equipment, mental aspects, etc. most have a limit of resources (time, money, and desire) to improve.
Three is simply many people do not have the physical skills in order carry a high average. I have been a good house hack for years but I have been around top national bowlers during that time. They have hand eye coordination that I can only dream of and certain other physical attributes that no matter what I did I could not compete with them.
Lower average handicap bowlers make up the bulk of league bowling and keep the game afloat financially. They should be given a fair shake and a little respect in that most are not out there bagging to keep a low average but simply trying their best with the hand they have been dealt.
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I think there are some great points in here that I have also witnessed first hand. One is that some people, no matter how much coaching/equipment/practice they have, will never be "high average" bowlers. They are just there to enjoy the game and have fun. There is a guy on my team in my handicap league who averages 105-ish. He gets ecstatic to bowl a 150-170 game (which has happened a couple of times in the last year and a half). We do handicapped brackets in that league and people with 200+ averages always bitch when they have to play him because of his handicap, and he usually does pretty well. It's my opinion that if they were both to bowl about their average then the higher average bowler still has the advantage since our handicap is 100% of 190. So by all rights, if you average 210 and shoot a 210, then my teammate would have to shoot a 125 to beat them which is 20 pins above his average. Yet it's somehow his fault when he shoots a 150 game and they have to bowl 25 pins above their average to win. His high game since I've been bowling with him is 177 which with handicap is a 262. I know plenty of 210 average bowlers that have rolled 262+ for high games and probably do it more frequently then my teammate shoots his 170s. So everything works out in the end. I don't understand the logic of these people that complain about it. Especially when there are scratch leagues available to bowl in AND those same people are always the ones who won't show up for the league meeting at the beginning of the year when we establish what the handicap rules will be for the year. Go figure. Rant over. haha
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Thanks for your comments guys. I used to carry a 215 average back when I was a very young man, but sure didn't get or have a big head over it. I've always enjoyed the sport of bowling and being around others who love this sport too. Now that I'm an old man and taking up the sport again after a 35 year hiatus, alas my average is now hovering around the 160+ point. I bowl in senior league and I have run into what you are describing every so often and it's very disheartening when someone goes off on me and my team about being sandbaggers. I go out and try to do the best that is possible with these old bones of mine and every once in awhile I do have a 200+ game. It makes me feel good when sometimes it all comes together, but is a bummer when the other teams accuse us of being dishonest. I'm not really sure why they do this, but it's very distracting to say the least. I guess that them being old and in a senior league gives them the right to say what they feel? Personally I think they should fall out of our senior league and go bowl with the younger bowlers who are hot dogs in their sport, but thinking that they won't do that since they don't want the same thing happening to them that they are giving to us in our league. Thanks for the time to share. :-O
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It's attitudes like that which drive the casual (ie. 'fun') bowler away from the game. The "pro's" need to get over themselves and take their beating, if they so choose to join a handicap league. Besides, that's what capt. meetings are for at the start of the yr. to vote on some rules. But I'm guessing the majority of the lg. would rightly walk if the handicap was changed.
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But what you're also not factoring in is that handicap should be FAIR, not biased towards the lower average bowler, which it is the majority of the time. The better bowler should win more often, that's just called life. At the same time though, if you're a good bowler, join a scratch league or try to get one started. It's ridiculous to go bowl a handicap league to try and get easy wins, but cry about the handicap when you lose. However, sometimes there just aren't scratch leagues available when people can bowl, and when it's either handicap league or nothing, it kind of sucks. Yeah not everybody is going to be in the perfect situation, but everybody tries to work things to their advantage. The handicap bowler that never practices and just comes in to drink that wants more handicap to make up for the effort he doesn't want to put into it shouldn't get it. The people that have worked their posteriors off to become as good as they are should win more often, that's just the way it is, but it's impossible to completely gauge motivation vs opportunity. There are plenty of people out there that want to get better, but just don't have the time or money. I see both sides of this, and I don't see it ever getting any better. Scores in bowling fluctuate way too much on house shots to ever find a fair solution. Tougher shots create a lower scoring pace so handicap would work much better, or at least be more fair, but that won't ever happen.
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Anyone who enters a handicap league or handicap pots/brackets and complains when they lose should be ashamed of themselves.
Now, what I have a huge issue with negative handicap, I bowl in a league where I start the night -18 in the hole. -6 per game. Absolute lunacy, now we are penalizing the better players? Needless to say, ill bowl this league until Christmas break and I won't return.
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Well but again I say that some people just don't have the options. Whenever possible I bowl scratch, but those opportunities are getting fewer and fewer. If you don't enter handicap tournaments and brackets, your only other options sometimes is to just not bowl. However, when you enter that stuff, you know what you're getting yourself into. May not make you feel any better, but you know what the possibilities are.
Anyone who enters a handicap league or handicap pots/brackets and complains when they lose should be ashamed of themselves.
Now, what I have a huge issue with negative handicap, I bowl in a league where I start the night -18 in the hole. -6 per game. Absolute lunacy, now we are penalizing the better players? Needless to say, ill bowl this league until Christmas break and I won't return.
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Better bowlers bitch because they aren't smart enough to figure out that as long as the handicap is not 100% or if they average more than the number the handicap is based off of that they have an advantage.
Negative handicap is no different. Would you feel better if they raise the base number 10 pins and you got 3 pins and everyone else got 9 more?
If you want the handicap to be fair the base number needs to be higher than anyone will average.
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As has been mentioned earlier, some bowlers are just not going to get better - ever, so they need handicap. Yet these lower average bowlers are the unsung heroes of most leagues. Without them, the leagues may not even exist. Whenever we have had a sport league in our center, the majority of the bowlers are those whose THS average is lower than 180, even lower than 160 - the 200+ average bowlers will not join the sport league (edited to add - or not for more than one season after seeing a 175 average). Yet, rather than appreciating what these bowlers are bringing to the league, the 200+ bowlers try to find more ways to exploit them.
Example: Handicap leagues here have been changing the baseline. A 210+ bowler will state in the league rules meeting that it is unfair for high average bowlers like himself to receive handicap so the handicap should be based off of 200 so they won't get any pins. Really? Sad to see the bowlers vote that in.
Edited to add: Obviously, it is not all 200+ average bowlers who are doing this. Just some who want to gain even more of an advantage over mostly newer bowlers or those who don't take the game as seriously as they do. But it only takes a few to stoke these changes.
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Better bowlers bitch because they aren't smart enough to figure out that as long as the handicap is not 100% or if they average more than the number the handicap is based off of that they have an advantage.
No, they are smart enough to know that. They just complain to mask the advantage so the lower average bowlers will not catch on to their scam.
If you want the handicap to be fair the base number needs to be higher than anyone will average.
Agree.
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Better bowlers bitch because they aren't smart enough to figure out that as long as the handicap is not 100% or if they average more than the number the handicap is based off of that they have an advantage.
Negative handicap is no different. Would you feel better if they raise the base number 10 pins and you got 3 pins and everyone else got 9 more?
If you want the handicap to be fair the base number needs to be higher than anyone will average.
Something tells me you get 35-40 pins a game and you bowl with a towel hanging from your back pocket.
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Your not even close, but nice try. The last time I got any type of handicap was about 1985, the year I started bowling. You are obviously one of the guys trying to get the advantage.
I've bowled exactly one handicap league in the last 27 years. It was a summer league 10 years ago with my buddy and both our wives. I pleaded with them to raise the handicap base from 210 to 240 so it would be fair. They wouldn't listen.
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One is why are all these higher average bowlers bowling in handicap leagues for?
One reason is MONEY. Handicap leagues tend to be bigger than scratch ones and have bigger prize funds.
They figure the majority of the bowlers are less skilled than them and they have a higher probability of winning and getting a bigger payout.
As opposed to scratch leagues which tend to be smaller, where they have to bowl against players of similar ability for a smaller payout.
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One is why are all these higher average bowlers bowling in handicap leagues for?
One reason is MONEY. Handicap leagues tend to be bigger than scratch ones and have bigger prize funds.
They figure the majority of the bowlers are less skilled than them and they have a higher probability of winning and getting a bigger payout.
As opposed to scratch leagues which tend to be smaller, where they have to bowl against players of similar ability for a smaller payout.
Not around here. Most of the best money was in the scratch leagues. At least until the last few years as bowlers seem to be dropping scratch leagues.
There are a few higher paying handicap leagues but they contain many of the ex scratch league bowlers so they are still beating up on each other.
But I still say so many say they want level competition but not really, they still want an edge. Just like most who say they want tougher conditions really only want it tougher for the other guy.
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I'm surprised I just saw this topic, somehow I missed it.
The simplest solution if you don't like handicap is to not bowl in handicap leagues/brackets/tournaments.
Unfortunately since I moved this past summer, I'm only bowling in handicap leagues as the closest scratch league to me is 1 1/2 hours away in Vegas. When I put more of my money in for brackets/tournaments, I always do scratch. If I get beat, I want to get beat because they bowled better than I did when bowling for money.
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I bowl in 2 scratch leagues, and 1 handicap
The handicap one is 100%...its much easier for
120 ave to shoot 170
170 to shoot 220 even...
I gotta shoot 270 to top these guys...
I bowl with a mostly handicap stacked team so we balance out and still win...
But my question is what is the optimal handicap?
Like 80% or 90% of what?
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Myths 21, 22, 23
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rules/pdfs/Mythbusters.pdf
If you want it to be fair for everyone you must use a base number that is above what anyone can average.
What is optimal is only an opinion. Golf's handicap system is much more complex but they use a factor of .96 to give the better player a slight advantage.
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House shots cause the imbalance. Also because of the scoring, it's much easier for a lower average bowler to have a game further over their average than it is for a higher average bowler to go over theirs. House shots also usually start out very easy then get relatively tough towards the end once carrydown has affected the shot. When you have swings like guys opening up with 279 and then finishing the night with a 179, there's no way handicap can fairly adjust anything for that. Tougher shots would regulate that more.
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I bowl in 2 scratch leagues, and 1 handicap
The handicap one is 100%...its much easier for
120 ave to shoot 170
170 to shoot 220 even...
I gotta shoot 270 to top these guys...
I bowl with a mostly handicap stacked team so we balance out and still win...
But my question is what is the optimal handicap?
Like 80% or 90% of what?
This is just my opinion. I would say most handicap leagues should be 90% and the cap should catch all the top averages with nobody over 5 pins above the cap.
To me handicap leagues shouldn't be big money leagues, they should be mostly social. You want to bowl for money then shoe it up scratch. And in big money leagues you shouldn't have 100 pin differences in averages, I would think everyone should be within 50 pins of average.
Everyone worries about the 120 shooting 170. There is a reason why the average 120 and they probably shoot 170 about as often as the 220 shoots 270.
My point still is that no matter what the effort put in there are a lot of bowlers who just are not going to average over 200. To simply say if they don't like getting beat every week that they need to get better is just folly.
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My team and I have this debate every year. We all avg in the 190s. The league we are in that is tops in the league some teams we're giving 200+ pins too. Thats freaking tough to make up. So every year we finish in the bottom half. Now the other league we could do is with better bowlers and we finished bottom third of that league so for us its tough. We voted at the meeting and got people to agree on lowering the handicap 5%
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I agree with the OP. Handicap exists in order to level the playing field. If you are a high average bowler who doesn't like giving up pins, join or offer to start a scratch league. That way you don't have to worry about giving pins away. It's sometimes difficult for the higher average guys to realize that they are in the minority. My Monday night men's league is a perfect example. There are probably 10-15 of us 220 plus, some 230 plus. On the other hand, there are a ton of guys 150-170 as well. Are we really supposed to tell those guys that it's their job to keep up with the big boys? If we did, we wouldn't have a league. If I want to bowl scratch, I can bowl pot games, look for tournaments, or grab a PBA card, problem solved. That sounds a lot more reasonable than forcing out the guys who are just there to have some fun.
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I have logged the games and done the stats 3 years for my handicap league. Averages range from 100 to 210. if i look at the variabilty as marked by the top 15% and bottom 15% of a bowler's scores, the range is almost the same for everyone. No obvious differnece by average. There are a hadful that seem to improve. And a few that jsut are wildly variable. I don't really see anyone so much more consistent that it would make a real difference.
So it al comes down to what you consider fair. If fair, means just pins above average then 100% is fair. If fair means teh better bowlers who at try and bowl as good as they can win more, I think 80% is fair. I think 90% works really well.
i ahve also looked at hwo the scorign woudl be if the cap was lower. I kind of like the idea of 100% of 190. That gives the better bowlers soem adavantage (just a little more than 80% of 220 would) and puts everyone else in a pins above average scramble. I think that would work well in league with a broad skill base.
Overall, there si very little difference in the outcome from handicap compared the the natrual variabilty in a bowler's scores (Usually +/- 25 pins if you exclude the extremes). This starts to change once the average is 230+.