Author Topic: Lane topography (Read 5396 times)

completebowler · « **on:** May 18, 2010, 07:29:15 AM »

I just mentioned this in another thread and thought it probably deserves it's own topic. This is something that I think USBC and BPAA need to wake up to and figure out a way to address it.

http://www.kegel.net/library/foArticles.asp?iKodYazi=51

I recently attended a full day seminar with some of the best bowling minds from around the world. It was an eye-opener to say the least. If it comes your way I would strongly suggest you jump on it. It covers a TON more than the link I provided. (plus I recieved a Reign of Fire since Storm was a co-sponsor)
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ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN''S ALL STAR LANES
WALLED LAKE MI

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2010, 06:49:10 AM »

Every USBC certified center's lanes are inspected every year. If lanes are out of specs, the issue has to be resolved. What more do they need to do to address it?
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Atochabsh · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2010, 09:33:45 AM »

Our association spends months certifying our 13 centers. It takes a ton of man power and its not an easy quick job. Plus its pretty dirty in the pits. Its usually done in the wee hours of the weekend mornings (usually Sunday). You have get folks to volunteer who can crawl in the pits and/or have long enough legs to straddle the lanes for hours. Then when that's done we have months of rechecks to do. We have some great volunteers including some youth that are always willing to help. Fortunately our centers are all very accomodating when we call to schedule certification. They all make their fixes (if any) and get rechecked no problem.

I "hear" that some associations just write it off and fill in the paperwork not physically doing each lane in each center and never do rechecks. That's an association problem not USBC. Since USBC does nothing about center certification its all up to your local assoc, other then demand that it be done, What else do you want USBC to do about it?

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2010, 09:53:56 AM »

quote:
Our association spends months certifying our 13 centers. It takes a ton of man power and its not an easy quick job. Plus its pretty dirty in the pits. Its usually done in the wee hours of the weekend mornings (usually Sunday). You have get folks to volunteer who can crawl in the pits and/or have long enough legs to straddle the lanes for hours. Then when that's done we have months of rechecks to do. We have some great volunteers including some youth that are always willing to help. Fortunately our centers are all very accomodating when we call to schedule certification. They all make their fixes (if any) and get rechecked no problem.

I "hear" that some associations just write it off and fill in the paperwork not physically doing each lane in each center and never do rechecks. That's an association problem not USBC. Since USBC does nothing about center certification its all up to your local assoc, other then demand that it be done, What else do you want USBC to do about it?

+1

I bowl and golf with the guy the does the certification for the association. I can attest to the effort he puts in. I was on the other end. I was the one removing shims from flat gutters, leveling lanes, and putting decks back on spot. Our center was fully compliant as long as I worked there and also had more than double the honor scores of any center in our local. I really don't get the scrutiny here. Is the OP arguing that centers are making scoring too easy through topography or too hard since centers aren't maintaining the lanes?
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

stopncrank · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2010, 10:05:38 AM »

quote:
quote:
Our association spends months certifying our 13 centers. It takes a ton of man power and its not an easy quick job. Plus its pretty dirty in the pits. Its usually done in the wee hours of the weekend mornings (usually Sunday). You have get folks to volunteer who can crawl in the pits and/or have long enough legs to straddle the lanes for hours. Then when that's done we have months of rechecks to do. We have some great volunteers including some youth that are always willing to help. Fortunately our centers are all very accomodating when we call to schedule certification. They all make their fixes (if any) and get rechecked no problem.

I "hear" that some associations just write it off and fill in the paperwork not physically doing each lane in each center and never do rechecks. That's an association problem not USBC. Since USBC does nothing about center certification its all up to your local assoc, other then demand that it be done, What else do you want USBC to do about it?

+1

I bowl and golf with the guy the does the certification for the association. I can attest to the effort he puts in. I was on the other end. I was the one removing shims from flat gutters, leveling lanes, and putting decks back on spot. Our center was fully compliant as long as I worked there and also had more than double the honor scores of any center in our local. I really don't get the scrutiny here. Is the OP arguing that centers are making scoring too easy through topography or too hard since centers aren't maintaining the lanes?
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

I think the gist of it is that no matter what shot is put out, lane topography has more of a role in how the lanes play than the actual pattern being put down. This is why i think there will never be a true standard oil pattern for USBC. There is too much varience from center to center for one shot to work without some adjustments in volume, etc.

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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Atochabsh · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2010, 11:16:17 AM »

I think most bowlers on this forum know that there's more to making a center "score friendly" then just oil pattern. If you didn't.....now you know.

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2010, 11:44:23 AM »

quote:

I think the gist of it is that no matter what shot is put out, lane topography has more of a role in how the lanes play than the actual pattern being put down. This is why i think there will never be a true standard oil pattern for USBC. There is too much varience from center to center for one shot to work without some adjustments in volume, etc.

--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

I think a wall shot takes a lot of the topography out of play, but it is much more evident on a flatter pattern.

A standardized pattern should NEVER be considered. No matter what, it is going to cater to somebody. Only a proprietor should make such decisions. Also, there are just too many variables: topography, conditioning machine model and physical condition, lane surface composition and condition, type of oil used, type of stripper used, frequency of oiling/stripping practices, temperature and humidity of the center, and so on. It is asinine to think that one "house" pattern can cover all of this and be equal to all bowlers.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 5/19/2010 11:45 AM

completebowler · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2010, 11:50:29 AM »

I am simply pointing out some new technology that is showing that USBC testing could be improved upon. They test at 3 points along the lane and not the entire lane. The Kegel mapping machine shows all topography. And the center they built has adjustable lanes that can be manipulated to show the effects it crowns, depressions, and tilts can have on ball motion. If you have not seen the presentation I think you should look it up so you can see what I have seen.

http://www.kegel.net/training/kegel_training_ktc.htm

Here is an interesting discussion by others who attended.

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=519

I am not trying to bash USBC. I think overall they do a commendable job, and it is a tough job. All I am saying is that this is becoming more of a factor due to the emergence of synthetic lanes. I cannot find links to all the information but keep your eyes open for more talk of this going around. Also, I am in agreement with the guy on the bowlingchat forum who thinks USBC needs to revisit the .004" rule in regards to crowns, depressions, and tilts....it does influence the ball more than most of us would have ever thought.

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ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
WALLED LAKE MI

stopncrank · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2010, 11:58:08 AM »

quote:
quote:

I think the gist of it is that no matter what shot is put out, lane topography has more of a role in how the lanes play than the actual pattern being put down. This is why i think there will never be a true standard oil pattern for USBC. There is too much varience from center to center for one shot to work without some adjustments in volume, etc.

--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

I think a wall shot takes a lot of the topography out of play, but it is much more evident on a flatter pattern.

A standardized pattern should NEVER be considered. No matter what, it is going to cater to somebody. Only a proprietor should make such decisions. Also, there are just too many variables: topography, conditioning machine model and physical condition, lane surface composition and condition, type of oil used, type of stripper used, frequency of oiling/stripping practices, temperature and humidity of the center, and so on. It is asinine to think that one "house" pattern can cover all of this and be equal to all bowlers.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 5/19/2010 11:45 AM

Definitely know what you getting at. When the first rounds of PBA leagues started, i joined 1 at a center that at the times was one of the last in this area to still have wood lanes. The lanes needed resurfacing at the time, and almost every pattern played the same from cheetah to shark.

With so many types of synthetics these days from Laneshield to Anvilane, a standardized shot or pattern just doesnt make sense.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

completebowler · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2010, 12:00:34 PM »

quote:
quote:

I think the gist of it is that no matter what shot is put out, lane topography has more of a role in how the lanes play than the actual pattern being put down. This is why i think there will never be a true standard oil pattern for USBC. There is too much varience from center to center for one shot to work without some adjustments in volume, etc.

--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

I think a wall shot takes a lot of the topography out of play, but it is much more evident on a flatter pattern.

A standardized pattern should NEVER be considered. No matter what, it is going to cater to somebody. Only a proprietor should make such decisions. Also, there are just too many variables: topography, conditioning machine model and physical condition, lane surface composition and condition, type of oil used, type of stripper used, frequency of oiling/stripping practices, temperature and humidity of the center, and so on. It is asinine to think that one "house" pattern can cover all of this and be equal to all bowlers.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 5/19/2010 11:45 AM

Do you think a lane that has .004" tilt to the right will play the same as one with .004" tilt to the right? Even on a wall shot? Don't you think one will recovery nicely while the other seems to hang at the breakpoint?

How about a depressed lane such as in the link in my OP? Power players that are laying it down left of center (for righties) have an advantge. The depression then helps feed the ball to the BP and helps it funnel back once it gets out wide. All the while the guy playing down and in is dealing with a lane that is flat hooking.

How about a worst case scenario? Depressed in the front 20' causing the ball to want to roll more, and then crowned down lane which will make the ball push towards the gutter. Would you be happy playing on a lane (or pair) that look like this while the guy next to you is playing on something flat?
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ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
WALLED LAKE MI

MrPerfect · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2010, 12:21:12 PM »

For those of us that have actually bowled at Kegel, if the lanes we bowled at were always as perfect as the conditions at the Kegel Training Center I think you would see honor scores among better bowlers go exponentially up.

ImakeA2srun · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2010, 02:44:59 PM »

I have never heard of any association checking decks, lane levelness or flat gutter hight. The only thing USBC does around here is tape your lanes 1 time a year. Plus you guys have to look at the big picture, do you really want to shut down a center because they couldnt comply with some bullsh-t USBC spec? Remember, this is someones income you are messing with.

ImakeA2srun · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2010, 02:52:00 PM »

Kegal and the USBC, providing some more useless information on bowling, thanks so much.

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2010, 03:03:49 PM »

quote:
I have never heard of any association checking decks, lane levelness or flat gutter hight. The only thing USBC does around here is tape your lanes 1 time a year. Plus you guys have to look at the big picture, do you really want to shut down a center because they couldnt comply with some bullsh-t USBC spec? Remember, this is someones income you are messing with.

They are suppose to. You don't shut down the center for non-compliance. The center has a chance to correct the problems. At some point though, they can start denying award scores.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2010, 03:05:11 PM »

quote:
Kegal and the USBC, providing some more useless information on bowling, thanks so much.

Kegel built a lane topography machine and wants to sell it. They are deep in USBC's pocket so they try to force associations to buy the machine to certify the leagues. It's as simple as that.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Author Topic: Lane topography (Read 5396 times)

completebowler

Lane topography

kmanestor22

Re: Lane topography

Atochabsh

Re: Lane topography

kmanestor22

Re: Lane topography

stopncrank

Re: Lane topography

Atochabsh

Re: Lane topography

kmanestor22

Re: Lane topography

completebowler

Re: Lane topography

stopncrank

Re: Lane topography

completebowler

Re: Lane topography

MrPerfect

Re: Lane topography

ImakeA2srun

Re: Lane topography

ImakeA2srun

Re: Lane topography

kmanestor22

Re: Lane topography

kmanestor22

Re: Lane topography